01-30-2006, 03:06 PM | #1 | ||
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Split of from the Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?-thread. This thread is to discuss the drowning of Numenor and its aspects.
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01-30-2006, 03:34 PM | #2 | ||
Elven Warrior
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01-30-2006, 04:22 PM | #3 | |||
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Eru has drowned not only those who committed crimes, but also innocent children, and fair maidens, and old people, and all the books and objects of art etc... Yes, he destroyed Sauron, that's what he wanted when toppling the island. It was simply hunting a fly with a hammer! Quote:
Now back to the topic of the thread. Why Merry and Pippin? I agree with Olmer. Clearly the extra hobbits were needed to carry the Ring, if the Ringbearer was killed. And it is not so much Gandalf's and Elrond's decision in Rivendell that matters, it is the original company that set off from the Shire. Gandalf APPOINTED Sam to go with Frodo (as a "punishment" for eavesdropping). And Sam invited Merry and Pippin (also very probably following Old Gandy's advice). Sam admits to Frodo at Crickhollow: Quote:
Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 01-30-2006 at 04:26 PM. |
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01-31-2006, 01:18 PM | #4 | |||||
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Concerning all the inhabitants of the sunken island, you have yet to address the fact that they would have returned to their policy of enslavement after the attack on Valinor, given the environment in which they grew; furthermore, they were subject to punishment by crossing the ban of the valar, a ban directly derrived from Eru's will that the destiny of his children regarding their life length shouldnt be change. Quote:
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01-31-2006, 02:23 PM | #5 | |||
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Here is the part about Numenor Where was the One Ring while Sauron was in Númenor? On his finger. Quote:
Some people are misled by Tolkien's statement that Sauron "took up again" the Ring after making himself a new body [Silm: Rings (292)]. All that means is that he first completed the new body, then turned again to his plans for world domination. See also: Quote:
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01-31-2006, 02:37 PM | #6 | |
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01-31-2006, 06:06 PM | #7 | ||||
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The innocent civilians in Numenor broke no ban, but they died a horrible death nonetheless. Eru decided they were expendable. I doubt, that after the destruction of the fleet, the remaining women and children would have been much of a threat to the Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elendil, Isildur and Anarion also grew in THAT environment, so why spare them? Quote:
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01-31-2006, 07:20 PM | #8 | |||||
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02-01-2006, 01:00 PM | #9 |
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There is little to add to Forkbeard's excellent post; as far as Gandalf's reincarnation possiblity is concerned (which is a far cry from indestructibility and we have no idea whether it is a repeatable event either), Tolkien, in his letter #153, doesn't exclude the possibility of reincarnation for Men too.
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02-01-2006, 01:40 PM | #10 |
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An interesting thread. Just got an observation:
Death was the "Gift of Iluvatar" to Men. It was Melkor who made it fearful. So, the more Men went over to the "dark side" as it were, the more they feared it. However, Death itself was a release from the world, so no tremendous punishment in the eyes of Iluvatar. Just wait till Mandos got hold of 'em. |
02-01-2006, 02:43 PM | #11 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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A very clever observation, The Gaffer. I tended to agree with CS, but now I think that you may be right: perhaps Eru didn't consider a violent death as much of a punishment, simply a transition into the other life outside the Circles of the world.
It matches the fact that Ar-Pharazon's fea has been entrapped: he will lay buried in Valinor till the Last Battle. He and his soldiers were punished more than the others. |
02-03-2006, 11:56 AM | #12 | ||||
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Some read the Akkalabeth and see a just punishment of a loving father to his stray children. Some see a crime against humanity.
It is simply the way you look on things personally. I am of the latter, Forkbeard and Landroval seem to be of the former. I can only say that Tolkien himself and Tolkien's own characters were not so cold-hearted: Quote:
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Moreover, consider that Akkalabeth was meant to be written by Elendil himself - one of the few who were "rightful", the one who was spared by the Valar, because his father Amandil betrayed the King and the cause of Numenoreans and sneaked to Valinor to ask "mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver"- but it was only mercy upon his family and his followers that he got.. Quote:
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And what right did Eru have to kill any of his children? Has a father the right to kill his children? No, it is a crime, and the culprit will end his days in jail. And rightly, even though for believers death is only a transition into a better world. |
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02-03-2006, 12:21 PM | #13 |
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There is a specific reference in the Silmarillion to how Men did not fear death until Melkor made it fearful.
So, maybe it was a great gift "which even the Powers shall envy ere the end" (can't remember where that quote comes from. It's not Eru's fault that we're a bunch of ungrateful bar stewards. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-03-2006 at 12:23 PM. |
02-03-2006, 12:52 PM | #14 | ||
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We are what we are. So what? Destroy the mankind? If Morgoth has 'worked" on us, that is not our fault. There is always an Ainu at the bottom of all our troubles. Reread Arwen's last words to Aragorn. She had not been influenced by Morgoth when she said: Quote:
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02-03-2006, 12:54 PM | #15 | ||
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A precedent for Eru's intervention in his Children's life is when he shortened their life length the moment they began worshiping Melkor; however, for reasons presented, there was no desire of repentance from the Numenoreans.
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02-03-2006, 06:01 PM | #16 | |
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I can't remember a lot about the different places where the idea of a gift is talked about - certainly in the Athrabeth, but I can't remember who "recorded" that conversation ... IIRC, Andreth (a human woman) relayed it as a legend of the wise among her people.
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02-03-2006, 07:39 PM | #17 |
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The perception of death as a gift is presented more in Silmarillion ("death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy" - chapter one); in the Athrabeth, Andreth presents the interesting idea that death was the result of Melkor's marring - not their initial 'design').
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02-05-2006, 03:28 AM | #18 | |||
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Bad Numenor went down. What was left out? “Faithful” Numenoreans!! Who continued “to oppress Middle Earth in the same hellish manner”, but now they were not restricted by any boundaries and their playfield widened out far beyond horizon. Did you see “improvement” in the Grand Design? So what was the point to kill so called “evil men, evil women, evil children, evil cats and evil chickens”? I'm absolutely agree with Crazy Squirrel statement that such acts of Eru couldn't be called anything less as a "crime against humanity", unless we will agree on conception that the Higher beings are devoid of any feelings and centiments, and all their action are beyond "good" or "evil", because by their nature they did not see any difference between it, and therefore can't be judged by people's standarts. Quote:
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02-05-2006, 04:25 AM | #19 | |||
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02-05-2006, 05:18 AM | #20 |
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A very interesting quote, thanks, Landroval!
You see, Eru never spoke to Men directly, did he? So all they have are old tales, either coming from the Eldar, or invented by Men themselves. Men never wanted Death and blamed it on Melkor. Elves and Ainur, deathless themselves, imposed that tale of a "Gift" on Men, but it never really worked. What Eru himself planned and designed is just unknown, except in rendition or interpretation. And Eru hardly had any emotions, baring childish anger, when His plans went astray. (I think Tolkien was fascinated by the difference in Mannish and Elvish traditions, he has even rewritten Akkalabeth several times to match Mennish and Elvish-Faithful Numenorean POV's) |
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