08-18-2005, 04:28 PM | #1 |
Quasi Evil
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Israeli Territory Pull Outs
What are peoples thoughts on whats going on in Israel right now with the settlements being evacuated and given back to the Palestinians? I think it’s the right thing to do although I can sympathize with those who have been told to leave their homes that they’ve known in some cases for decades. But the cost of protecting a small number of settlers on the outskirts of a land surrounded by literally millions of Palestinians is becoming too high and a gesture of peace like this by a hard liner like Sheron during a time of a (hopefully) more centrist shift in Palestinian politics with the recent election of Abas seems on all sides to be the best choice to make. What do others here feel about it? I particularly post this here because we have some Israeli board members and would like their perspective on this. Ive heard plenty from us loud mouth Americans on it.
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08-19-2005, 01:18 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, hearing Radagast on this subject would be interesting.
Myself, I'm concerned still. Most Palestinians feel that Hamas forced Israel out. Hamas is gaining massive political support. Prime Minister Sharon has demanded that the Palestinian Authority dismantle Hamas before major further progress can be made (like connecting the West Bank and Gaza). This is pretty much impossible, for Hamas has so much support. So this barrier will cause problems to the peace process. Add to that the fact that while Israel is dismantling 2000 housing units in Gaza, it plans to construct 6000 units in the West Bank. The peace gesture may end up looking pretty weak, pretty soon. Taken by itself though, I think the withdrawal from Gaza is a good thing. I just don't think it'll be enough. When Arafat was dealing with Israel, he was offered Gaza and he wouldn't stop there. He said, "Gaza is a dead end," and pressed on for the West Bank and a road connecting them. I think negotiations broke down at about there. Israel will need to make more concessions, but as I don't think PM Sharon will be willing to make them unless forced to by massive international pressure (which means the US would have to take action, which I don't think it will), the process could stop there. I read on BBC that PM Sharon has also spoken of stopping Palestinians being allowed to work in Israel by 2008. That will be disastrous for the Palestinians, if anything comes of it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-19-2005 at 01:21 AM. |
08-19-2005, 11:21 AM | #3 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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I feel this will lead to further attacks on Israel and bring on more deaths.
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08-19-2005, 01:50 PM | #4 | ||
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08-19-2005, 02:10 PM | #5 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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They want a state; a state should be self supporting with trade agreements, etc. They can't have it both ways.
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08-19-2005, 02:56 PM | #6 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Here's an interesting article from BBC on what the situation will be after the Gaza withdrawal is complete. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4160026.stm Quote:
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I'm afraid I'm still just really skeptical as to how much good this will end up doing. In the short-term, good will probably be done, but in the long run I just can't see this helping. Not unless Israel follows up with other concessions, and I'm sure it won't. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-19-2005 at 03:54 PM. |
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08-19-2005, 03:59 PM | #7 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The evacuation led to some heart-breaking images. One way I think this was an inevitable step in the peace-process in the region, on the other hand I feel for the Israeli people who were forced out of their home. They're victim of bad government policies. Those colonies should never have been built in the first place, in my opinion. They were a constant provocation and I doubt the situation could have been resolved in any other way than pulling-out. I would like to believe the region is now on it's way towards peace but I fear that would be too optimistic. There's still too many other issues, like that wall, that can still blow up the frail chances of stability in the region. Still, I hope this is a step forward nevertheless, even if the road ahead is still very long.
I am rather impressed that Sharon went through with the pull-out. I hadn't expected it after his hard-liner words in the past. Which strengthens me in the conviction that extreme political stances that don't leave place for compromise or discussion never amount to any good. Quote:
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08-20-2005, 11:10 AM | #8 | ||
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08-20-2005, 11:20 AM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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I was in vacation... just got back.
What I thought...? I was personally for it. It doesn't have to do much with the peace process really... no one had peace in mind IMO, not here anyway. It was basically realizing we can't keep about one soldier per settler, in the middle of the strip... millions of palestinians surrounding. It's just illogical and dangerous. So we got out. Doubt it will continue to the West Bank sometime soon, since I doubt Sharon wants it or has any majority. He could barely do this one. I'm not sure really what I feel about the settlers.. It's hard for me to feel sympathy, because they could leave weeks ago, but they decided to stay have their things packed by strangers, not having a place to live in and not get compensations for the ruined houses.. fine. I can say I even hate some of them... I don't tihnk much would be changed in the relations with Palestinians.. But that's just me.. I thought it was obvious that in a future peace treatment Gaza would be Palestinian. And I really don't like the idea of having Palestinians still coming in Israel... But maybe it's just me. I just thought it would end after we leave them to live by theirselves. Like they wanted. |
08-20-2005, 11:33 AM | #10 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Good to have you back RTB. The P. talk one thing and do another. You'll never be rid of them because then they'd have nothing to do: a) no dancing before the cameras, b) no holding empty RPG in the street, c) no shooting or killing or bombing.....well you get the point. NEVER AGAIN!
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08-20-2005, 12:14 PM | #11 | |||
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You're also forgetting the other side of the story. You're forgetting "Operation Rainbow," which blasted into Palestinian infrastructure in Gaza. The Israeli Army demolished banks, businesses and schools. "Terrorist infrastructure" that cost the United States and other countries millions of dollars. You forget Jenin. There actually have been Palestinian civilians murdered as well. A Palestinian woman recently weeping over a husband murdered by one of these recent Jewish terrorists cried, "why when a Jew kills do they say, 'he is a madman, he is insane', but when a Palestinian kills they label him 'terrorist'?" The reason that the Jew murdered was that he 'cracked under pressure because of the Gaza withdrawal'. The reason Palestinians murder is little different, though perhaps much better explained. They crack under the desperations caused by hunger and want, by homelessness and oppression. They have viewed Israel as an oppressor, and I think for good reason. It has stolen their land and ignored international law that has demanded that the Palestinians be allowed to return to the homes they left. Instead Israel bulldozed the Palestinian villages they couldn't use. It was an expansionist philosophy. It's been done by many other nations before. That doesn't make it right, however. There are two sides to the story. On the other hand, I admire the Jewish courage that I have seen in Israel. They founded their nation despite severe opposition and in the face of terrible odds, which is impressive. I admire their bold stance for democracy in a region where such freedom is unheard of. There is good and bad. I am not justifying the terrorist bombers, but explaining them. I don't believe in the bloodshed that has occurred on either side. I am very much in favor of Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority right now, a group that is struggling to do what is right under severe pressure from all sides and with few resources. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-20-2005 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Grammar |
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08-20-2005, 12:28 PM | #12 | |||||
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08-20-2005, 01:27 PM | #13 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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08-20-2005, 03:33 PM | #14 | |
Quasi Evil
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The fact is that the average Palestinian is NOT some terrorist zealot who wants to kill Israelis and live off Israeli welfare (I mean the very notion... And you call yourself a man of "logic") but is in fact just a normal hard working person who wants desperately to make a living by their own hand, to support themselves and their family just as any normal human wants. This is why walling them off and crushing their infrastructure and making it nearly impossible for them to get to and from work is ultimately counterproductive. Because you keep them helpless and angry and the militant voices will catch favor. But they WANT to live normal lives. They dont want their olive trees bulldozed and their families physically torn apart and deal with 800 checkpoints just to get to work or to market. would you?
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08-20-2005, 05:09 PM | #15 | ||
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If the US knocks down Iraq's government, it can't then just say, "oh, you guys want a government, build it for yourselves!" It has a responsibility to make sure that Iraq does have a good, stable government functioning before it leaves. Even if some Iraqis continue to try killing our people. In the same way, if Israel causes Palestinians to live in poverty, Israel has a responsibility to the Palestinian economy. The fact that some Palestinians are mad, humiliated and ready to fight back does not change the place at which responsibility lies.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-21-2005, 06:04 AM | #16 |
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Good stuff, Lief. You show sympathy for both sides of the story.
Ultimately, an independent and viable Palestine is the only solution. Clearly, Sharon is withdrawing settlements with one hand while shoring up the West Bank with the other. I would say that this is a tactic so they can point at having made concessions. But there's no denying it's a step in the right direction. When you look at other terrorist situations which reached settlement, what you see is that "concessions" (even if they're minor and/or cynical) can gradually erode the support for extremism on both sides. Eventually, enough people are having a normal enough time of it to starve the extremists of support. Clearly, Gaza is a long way from that situation, but I would hope that the international community can stick its hand in its pocket to a fraction of the extent we are doing in Iraq and make sure that Gaza becomes a success story. That would be good for both Palestinians and Israelis, IMO. |
08-21-2005, 10:49 AM | #17 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Take 'em as they apply
1. you can't understand unless you've walked in his shoes and you haven't.
2. it's not an illegal occupation, it is the result of a war unwanted and fought to preserve Israel, it's called "you lost". 3. After the Oslo Agreement, the U.S. announced a five-year, $500 million economic aid package for the West Bank and Gaza: $375 million in grants from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) and $125 million in loan guarantees from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC). The United States gives over $100 million annually in foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority From all international sources, the Palestinian Authority was promised $4.2 billion in foreign assistance in the five years following Oslo, but received just $2.5 billion, most of it from Western Europe. What the he** do they do with all that money....oh I know, it's in Arafats daughters account in Switzerland to help pay for her parisian flings.
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08-21-2005, 03:13 PM | #18 | |||
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Also, the occupation is indeed illegal according to the United Nations. Israel itself, of course, disputes this. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-21-2005 at 04:13 PM. |
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08-21-2005, 04:40 PM | #19 | ||||
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http://www.aaiusa.org/foreign_aid.htm Oh, and I know there are much more recent figures but this was a more comprehensive and concise quote so I used it.
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08-21-2005, 05:20 PM | #20 | |
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