01-28-2002, 01:58 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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Where do dragons come from?
Maybe some of the more learned members can answer this for me. Were dragons once maiar, or were they bred by Morgoth, and if they were bred by him, what were they corruptions of? Thanks for everyone's help in advance.
Last edited by Nimrodel : 01-28-2002 at 01:59 AM. |
01-28-2002, 02:05 AM | #2 |
Sapling
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In the Silmarillion it says "Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons..." So, I think Morgoth corrupted the Great Worms for his own evil purposes. Hope that's helpful!
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01-28-2002, 02:09 AM | #3 |
Hobbit
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thanks for that ann, but where in the Sillmarillion, or in fact when in ME have the great worms been mentioned? Its been a while since I've read the Sil, but there are worms in ME? Great big worms? Well then, I've learnt something new today.
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01-28-2002, 02:17 AM | #4 |
Sapling
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In the Hobbit on Thror's Map it mentions the Far North, "the Grey Mountains and the Withered Hearth whence came the Great Worms." In the Silmarillion the first of the dragons of Morgoth was Glaurung, aka the father of dragons, aka the Great Worm and the Worm of Morgoth.
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"This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." -Elrond |
01-28-2002, 02:27 PM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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RE: Where do dragons come from?
The Dragons in their begining were either Kelvar ( animals of various kinds ) later corrupted and 'improved' by Morgoth or creatures of Morgoth's own devising just like the kelvar were creatures made by Yavanna.
In any case they ended up being huge vessels of power 'filled with the malice of Morgoth.'
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01-28-2002, 04:34 PM | #6 | |
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01-28-2002, 04:55 PM | #7 | |
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RE:Where do dragons come from?
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-28-2002 at 04:58 PM. |
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01-28-2002, 07:22 PM | #8 |
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They are often known as Worms because most of them don't have wings and crawl on their belly, unlike the typical fantasy dragon.
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01-28-2002, 08:46 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
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Where do dragons come from? aww how cute, okay when a mommy dragon and a daddy dragon... hehe just fooling with ya
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01-28-2002, 10:14 PM | #10 |
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One would assume Valanorian creations are sanctioned by Eru. Morgoth didn't get any such blessing.
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01-28-2002, 11:54 PM | #11 | |
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In The Silmarillion and (I believe) the Narn I Hin Hurin published in Unfinished Tales, it says Glaurung was filled with the evil spirit and will of his master. This is one of those examples of Morgoth disseminating himself throughout Arda. Like Sauron would later do with the Olog-hai, the Dragons were able to move about and live because they were filled with a part of a living spirit. It's the bodies of the Dragons that are shrouded in mystery.
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01-29-2002, 10:09 AM | #12 |
Hobbit
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Thanks everyone for your input. You helped satiate my curiosity.
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01-29-2002, 02:37 PM | #13 |
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Of major interest though, in Unfinished Tales Thorin states that Dragonets (Infant Dragon) hatch from eggs, in an argument about Bilbo's ability as a thief.
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01-29-2002, 02:53 PM | #14 | ||
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RE: Where do dragons come from?
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I'll order those damn History of Middle Earth books tomorow.
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-29-2002 at 03:30 PM. |
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02-04-2002, 06:04 PM | #15 |
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It is clear that Morgoth can't create. Even to make a new form of animal or similar being would have to be done with permission from the One. Other examples of Morgoths work are known, so we can tell how far he can corrupt from an origional state. He was able to turn corrupted elves into orcs. It is possible that he did the same with dragons. Maybe he started from a similar reptiliam being and started corruption from there. That would give a new form of creature that is capable of breeding, just like the reptilian creature that it origionaly started as.
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02-04-2002, 06:43 PM | #16 |
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Well again, there had to have been some variety of "original reptilian stock" for Morgoth to corrupt into dragons, because there also had to be an original to corrupt into the pterodactyl-thingies that the Nazgul flew.
There are a couple of dragons in the Silmarillion, and apparently, some of the larger, older and fiercer dragons of old could have even have destroyed the One Ring with their fires.
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02-04-2002, 08:21 PM | #17 |
Elf Lord
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"I'll order those damn History of Middle Earth books tomorow."
My information was gotten from The Silmarillion and Letters. Look in the Valaquenta, you will see that the Kelvar are Oromë's interest. "because there also had to be an original to corrupt into the pterodactyl-thingies that the Nazgul flew." Not necessarily. The pterodactyl creatures may not have been physically corrupted (they were obviously wicked and foul creatures). Tolkien said that he introduced them in such a way so as to make it possible for them to be the last survivors of a prehistoric era; i.e., dinosaurs. "apparently some of the larger, older and fiercer dragons of old could have even have destroyed the One Ring with their fires." What gives you that impression? Gandalf said 'not even a Dragon's fire could harm that Ring'.
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02-04-2002, 08:26 PM | #18 | |
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RE: Where do dragons come from?
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P.S Ñólendil, you are Inoldonil right?
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Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä. Last edited by Captain Stern : 02-04-2002 at 08:28 PM. |
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02-04-2002, 08:35 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Maybe he says both. Anyway Ancalagon the Black was the greatest of the Dragons (according to The Silmarillion). Yeah, I'm Inoldonil.
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02-05-2002, 08:21 AM | #20 |
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Gandalf said something like "Some say, that fire of dragon could destroy a Ring of Power, but there's no dragon on Earth, whose fire would be still hot enough, and there has never been a dragon, who could had destroyed the One Ring. Not even Ancalagon the Black could had done it, as this Ring was created by Sauron himself.
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