Orcs - absolute rubbish or what???

[Gerbil]

No I'm not commenting on their looks or anything (although they do seem to vary in style quite a lot. More so than, say, elves differ, and that's before you take the Uruk-hais into account).

Orcs.

Aren't they absolutely rubbish?
Why on earth did Sauron and Saruman build his armies from them?
I mean, I've seen more effective herds of Lemmings in combat.
The evidence stacked against them really is rather damning.
Consider:

1) Sam with a frying pan beats them
2) During combat they simply run towards opponents - presumably with the intention of running straight over them. Weapons in hand are completely ignored.
3) Legolas shoots two with 1 arrow. I often run directly behind someone
4) Legolas pokes one in the neck with an arrow. See point 2 for explanation
5) Boromir at death's door manages to twat rather a lot of 'em.
6) They all leg it from the Balrog way before he's there and with plenty of time to twat company
7) They have the reaction speed of a sloth. Notables include Aragorn attacking first wave on Amon Hen, and Boromir at end.
8) They are about as observant as a blind man wearing a blindfold at night in the middle of space. They cunningly don't attack the weaker members of the fellowship in Moria for much of the time.

Basically, they remind me of the many thousands of allieds who died in the trenches during the world wars - sent out simply to deplete the resources and reserves of the opponents.
Amazing to think that Morgoth almost managed to rule Beleriand with these incompetants.

And since they are supposedly warped Elves, Morgoth must have been cursing his luck to warp out of them their looks, intelligence and natural skills. Bummer, eh?

[coolismo]

To me american movies are still obsessed with cowboys and indians. The battle scenes with orcs are like a 50's B movie. ...circle the wagons. The indians always would ride round and round until they were all shot O and the cook would always whack one with the frying pan (still with pipe in mouth). Its cowboys and indians in Moria for sure ulululululululululululululul. Remember in 50 years time FOTR will be on Sunday afternoons and I cant stand to see a movie on tv on sundays where noone gets whacked with a pan or the baddies suddenly get strategy.

[luinilwen]

I mean, I've seen more effective herds of Lemmings in combat.

you had to make the rodent refernece, eh gerbil?

IMO PJ did the orc fight scenes like this for 'good vision'. i don't think tolkien intended orcs to look like muscular monkeys with weapons, and that they were in fact great warriors. legolas and aragorn kick orc ass, but ass for master samwise... well let's just say there's a reason why tolkien wrote that all the orcs had already killed each other off by the time he enters minas morgul.

but i agree, the fight scenes are a bit "yeah right" - these huge fellas don't even scratch any of the fellowship (err save boromir *cough*). maybe they should have used the "everybody was kung-fu fighting" song

[Gerbil]

Rodent reference? I didn't even notice. Must be a much more deep-seated love of the lil critters than I thought

Love the C&I comparison - tis too true.

Also, regarding the Uruk-hai - why is only the leader clever? I thought the assumption was that all the orcs leaving Isengard to twat the fellowship were these, of equivalent intelligence / skill as the leader, who, let's face it, managed to almost kick Aragorn's hairy ass. If the whole lot were like them, the fellowship would be kebabs by now.

(On accuracy note - yeah I know in the books half the orcs were from mordor half from Isengard and even then a mixed bag, but certainly a fair number were Uruk-hai's).

[Lightice]

IMO PJ did the orc fight scenes like this for 'good vision'. i don't think tolkien intended orcs to look like muscular monkeys with weapons, and that they were in fact great warriors. legolas and aragorn kick orc ass, but ass for master samwise... well let's just say there's a reason why tolkien wrote that all the orcs had already killed each other off by the time he enters minas morgul.

Exept ofcourse the fact, that Sam never went into Minas Morgul, nor did anyone else of the Fellowship at any point...
If he had went into Minas Morgul, even with all orcs dead, Sam wouldn't had survived a minute there becouse of Voiceless Guards. A good reason for him never going there, right?
Tower he went was another of the watch towers of Cirith Ungol.

[luinilwen]

of course that's what i meant... i was, err, testing you sorry - silly mistake.

[Gerbil]

Yes, Luinilwen is very testing at times

As for the nameless dread, was it an actual entity itself, or was it some sort of residual 'magic' (I hate that word in reference to Tolkien) caused by the Cheif Nazgul residing there?

[Lightice]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Yes, Luinilwen is very testing at times

As for the nameless dread, was it an actual entity itself, or was it some sort of residual 'magic' (I hate that word in reference to Tolkien) caused by the Cheif Nazgul residing there?

So it seems...

I think, that it was several, incorporeal entitys. They were called Voiceless Guards, right?
I think, that they were something like barrow-wights, but worse, being closer to Mordor.

[Luthien Tinuviel]

ahh, sauron was probly counting on their hideousness to win the battles...

Gandalf: HERE COME THE ORCS!

*orcs surround the company*

Aragorn: *yawns, swats a few w/ his sword*

Sam: um, when was the last time these guys bathed?

Merry: Yea, and did they have parents or guardians w/ them went they got all their piercings?

Gimli: MAN THESE GUYS ARE UGLY!!!!!!! *the company stands their ground*

Gandalf: Ah ha ha ha! Sauron expected us to be frightened by these ugly guys. But no, we aren't frightened, SO THERE!

*all of a sudden drums and red fire appear in hallway just behind them*

Frodo: Um, Gandalf? Whats happening?

Gandalf: *freezes for a split second* OK, NOW ITS TIME TO GET FRIGHTENED! THIS GUY IS HIDEOUS!!!!!

*everyone takes off, as Balrog bursts in*


um, yea...

[Gerbil]

So mean! The Balrog isn't hideous, nor is he evil.
He's just misunderstood.
It's his parents' fault.

[webwizard333]

The battles w/ the orcs were a tad unbelievable. Nine people can beat countless hords of orcs? Apparently for Jackson they can. Though, I didn't really mind those battles (no matter how cheesy Sam was-al least let him use gardening tools) up until Aragorn walked right into the middle of the orcs. That was rediculous.

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

Remember, the Fellowship features 5 people who are absolute killing machines in Tolkein's books. Legolas and Gimli kill almost 100 orcs between them at Helm's Deep. Boromir is found surrounded by a pile of Uruk-Hai. Aragorn fights from the quays of Minas Tirith to the middle of the Pellenor Fields and meets Eomer there, neither of whom have suffered so much of a scratch. Gandalf is a Maia! Remember, the Fellowship contanis some of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.

PS - The good guys always kills huge amounts of bad guys. Hurin (Aragorn's distant ancestor) kills 70 trolls by himself at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

[Gerbil]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking any of the fellowship members' abilities.
Indeed it is Gandalf who says something along the lines of 'there are those amongst us who are worth a thousand soldiers apiece' in RotK when about to set forth in the final battle against Sauron (although of course, he was not just talking about fighting prowess, but ya get my drift).

It's just that, no matter how good Aragorn et al are at fighting, the orcs appear to have the fighting abilities of a slug with a shotgun. Looks scary enough, but absolutely no way of doing any damage (unless you should slip on the slug and land on the gun of course).

I mean, running into an arrow held out in front of you? I think not.
Getting twatted by a gardener with a frying pan? Only for the blind. I think PJ put in a few too many 'comic' moments. EG I wish Pippin had not said his 'Look at me I'm stupid, hur hur hur' line when the Fellowship is decided. Unecessary.

So what will we see in TTT? A re-run of classic Laurel and Hardy and Marx Brothers sketches? I can see it now - Sam carrying a plank on his shoulders turning around quickly to look for Frodo, mowing down orcs as he goes to emerge unscathed from Cirith Ungol with a slightly bemused look on his face.

Orcs suck.

Now Hurin, HE rocked. None of this poncing around killing orcs who's sole job in life is to throw themselves onto the nearest sharp and pointy thing. 70 trolls is rock. Although bear in mind they were commanded to take him alive. I seem to recall some bit of the text stating that he carried on fighting while the dismembered hands still clung to him. Now THAT'S grim. But he did kind of suffer for it in the end. As did his entire family. And everyone in Gondolin. And Nargothrond. And ultimately the rest of Beleriand. But apart from that, he rocked!

If you've read The Last Hero by Terry Pratchett, Orcs remind me of the proper evil lord's soldiers

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

Very rarely in stories do the good triumph by use of overwhelming cannon fodder against individually superior but vastly outnumbered bad guys. It's just cooler to be outnumbered.

As far as the battles go, as long as PJ doesn't screw up the Charge of Theoden I'll be happy. I better see the battle-fury of his ancestors flowing anew through his veins, or whatever the line is, and Eowyn vs. the Witch-King better kick ass. My only question is since the Hobbits never get trapped in the Barrrows, how are they going to explain Merry's blade causing such cataclysmic damage to the Lord of the Nazgul?

[Gerbil]

I've heard a rumour that the Eowyn / Merry thing so you don't have to worry about his blade causing the NAzgul sudden and inexplicable amounts of damage. It's only a tiny change, so it shouldn't detract from the film too much.

Basically when Merry stabs the Nazgul he trips and twists his ankle. He then proceeds to get back up, kills Merry and Eowyn, and leads his army to victory in the Pelannor Fields, thereby ensuring Sauron rules Middle Earth until the end of it's days in darkness.

Oh, until Arwen arrives and does something similar to Luthien, except here she uses inane lines to bore Sauron into sleep before stealing his ring, stabbing him several times, running anyone and everyone in Barad-dur through with her sword and casting the ring into the fires of Mount Doom.

I seem to recall the script closing on the line of Aragorn going:

'Damn. she really is evil at this time of the month.'

Fade to black and closing credits.

*sheds a tear*

[Comic Book Guy]

Gerbil, the points you made out were not in the book, but in the movie, so it's not Canon. Orcs could be intelligent and great fighters, Uruks were said to be great at craft and they made very cunning and cruel weapons of war. I guess much of their combat skill lies within the fact that they are always in great groups and masses, making it more safer for them to attack.

Don't forget the disater of the Gladden Fields, Isildur and a lot of his great knights were beaten by orcs.

[Kiri]

1: The insipid crack about "cowboys and indians" is REALLY RICH given that Jackson isn't from the USA. Likewise, the US Western didn't invent that cliche but adopted it from EUROPEAN sources. (Ever see Cyrano????) So if you hate something American remember that all we do is purify the essence of Europe.

2: I wonder if Jackson hasn't been influenced by other interpretations of "orcs" or "goblins" over the decades, all of which fell far short of the terrors that infested Middle Earth.

[Gerbil]

Gerbil, the points you made out were not in the book, but in the movie, so it's not Canon. Orcs could be intelligent and great fighters, Uruks were said to be great at craft and they made very cunning and cruel weapons of war. I guess much of their combat skill lies within the fact that they are always in great groups and masses, making it more safer for them to attack.

Don't forget the disater of the Gladden Fields, Isildur and a lot of his great knights were beaten by orcs.

Errr yes, all of what you wrote was kind of my point, so thanks for agreeing with me, even though it appears you weren't intending to. My point is Orcs in the film are rubbish, not like they were in the books at all (I even went as far as to notice differences in troop movements between the book and the film).

So again, thanks for backing me up on this!

[Gerbil]

1: The insipid crack about "cowboys and indians" is REALLY RICH given that Jackson isn't from the USA. Likewise, the US Western didn't invent that cliche but adopted it from EUROPEAN sources. (Ever see Cyrano????) So if you hate something American remember that all we do is purify the essence of Europe.

I'm afraid I don't know what you are on about, so please enlighten me as to Cyrano.
I hate MANY American things, but as I have said elsewhere, there's a lot to be hated from all nations, including my own. So that's hardly relevant.
As for you guys saying all you do is 'purify' (interesting choice of word, too!) the essence of Europe, then somehow I doubt you have travelled around Europe much. America is a country and law unto itself. Many countries now reflect the US to a greater or lesser degree, and many certainly want to. The same is not nearly as true in reverse. If it helps (which of course it won't then many Europeans consider the 'Americanisation' of Europe to be a bad thing? If you want to have a long tedious arguement about 'my country is better than your country' then PM me, and we can get vitriolic and not resolve anything in private

Anyway, back on topic - Jackson may not have been from the US, and the film may not have been filmed in the US, but the money came from the US. Jackson had a lot of dues to pay to the US market, and this is certainly reflected in the film. Even if these 'dues' weren't, well, due, then for mass market appeal you can't beat aiming for the Americans - single largest market in the world for this sort of stuff.

2: I wonder if Jackson hasn't been influenced by other interpretations of "orcs" or "goblins" over the decades, all of which fell far short of the terrors that infested Middle Earth.

I think it would be extremely weak and unforgivable of Jackson to be contaminated by rubbish versions of what was essentially a Tolkien invention (yes goblins are not, but Orcs were, and indeed despite Legolas going 'goblins!' in Moria - we only ever see Orcs).
However, he's done almost as bad anyway - created a foe who simply is not worthy of respect or to be feared, which is what the film did for me. Orcs = cannon fodder, simple as that.

[Foul_Dwimmerlaik]

Well. it may just be me, but Orcs never struck me as being particularly formidable foes in LotR. Again, Legolas and Gimli kill dozens of them each in one battle. Anytime you are losing soldiers at a 40 to 0 rate, you're in trouble...I don't care who's doing the kiling on the other side.