03-15-2005, 07:31 PM | #1 |
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Homosexual marriage
IMO, this is a very important and timely topic to discuss. In the US, it's certainly a hot topic right now! I'd love to hold a good discussion on this issue, and it's been discussed on the "Gays, Lesbians and Bisexuals" thread, but some people have complained that it's taken over that thread. It's also been discussed on the "marriage" thread, but katya (the thread starter) didn't want it discussed. SO - to honor those feelings, here's a thread that is specifically to discuss the subject of homosexual marriage and related side-issues
This is one of those topics where people can get emotional, so as thread-starter I request that people be considerate of others. PLEASE feel free to vigorously point out perceived errors in a person's opinion, logic, conclusion, deduction, data, etc - but do NOT attack the person! And please do NOT speak for other people - let them speak for themselves. Please do NOT assume a person holds an opinion until they say they do - go ahead and ask them if you're not sure. Let's not stereotype! Let's not hold arguments with imaginary people. I think it's very valuable to discuss issues with people that hold opposing opinions. Let's go for it! People involved in the discussion - please copy over some posts from the other threads to start us off.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 10:01 PM | #2 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Some good starting posts would be IRex's recent post explaining his views, and Wizard from Milan's article about the judge in California.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 10:54 PM | #3 | |
Elven Warrior
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Ok, here it goes again
Quote:
I am actually not sure that all this compartimentalization of threads improves clarity. Separately, "Homosexual marriage" is a misnomer because there is no such a thing as a new type of marriage that is of the homosexual type. I think that the thread should be called "Marriage of same-sex couples". For short "same-sex marriage". I may well have been liable of having called it "gay marriage" before, but it should be clear that it is a marriage exacly like the one among different-sex couples, not a new type of marriage |
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03-16-2005, 08:23 AM | #4 |
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Are we talking civil unions or traditional marriage in church? Or both?
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03-16-2005, 10:06 AM | #5 | ||
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I think all types of marriage that gay people would like to be a part of can be discussed here. So, civil and religiously blessed.
One point of confusion for marriages in general, is Christian priests (I'm pretty sure all, or at least most) are also allowed to give marriage licences ie. preform civil unions. When you're married in a Christian ceremony, the civil union aspect is incorporated into the ceremony. If you were blessed without the civil union, you wouldn't be considered married in the eyes of the law. Any further points on that we should discuss in Katya's marriage thread, but I wanted to clear that up here because any discussion of marriage can be confusing. You can say marriage to mean civil unioned or married to mean blessed in your church, or both at the same time. I don't think the term "gay marriage" or "homosexual marriage" is misleading here, because it means gay people getting married. I don't think it suggests a new sort of marriage. Onwards, I think people pretty much know what I think on the issue... for clever, well-written, and intelligent posts, read someone else's! Just kidding! Check out my posts in the GLB thread. I think that including gay people in the institution of marriage (civil unions) would not only be good for marriage, but for society as a whole. I don't think the government should be party to discrimination against gays. However, I also don't believe churches should be forced to preform ceremonies they don't believe, but I don't think anybody is asking for that here. Unlike the government, churches can choose which couples they believe are fit for marriage no matter what their sexual orientation is. A church would deny marriage to a straight couple they didn't feel was ready for this commitment, but the government will allow any couple to marry. It's not the business of the government to police people's sex lives, but it is there job to uphold people's rights. This means they will and should protect the rights of minors, (ie. not allowing underaged people to get married). Therefore I see no reason why the government should not allow gay people to get married, and neither does the Canadian government. I think this is an important step in overcoming discrimination against gay people.
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03-16-2005, 04:07 PM | #6 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2005, 04:13 PM | #7 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2005, 04:23 PM | #8 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Does this judge somehow think that the millions of Californians who voted to keep marriage between an adult consenting man and an adult consenting woman voted to do so merely because it's "traditional" and it's always been "done so before"?! This reminds me of the claim from a few Democrats that people that voted for Bush were "stupid". I believe that if you think you're right, then you should try to persuade people. Give people the dignity of assuming they think about things, and realize that if they disagree, it doesn't have to be because they're "stupid"; perhaps YOU'RE wrong, or perhaps you just have different worldviews. Why is this man the sole arbiter of what is "rational"? (in another quote he said something like he couldn't find a rational reason to deny same-sex marriages.) Bring it before the good people of California for a fair vote! Oh wait, we already did that - and the good people of California voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman. I voted this way, and I certainly didn't feel constrained at ALL to vote this way because it was "traditional" or it's always been "done so before"! Sheesh! The people that fought and died to establish the USA did so to get out from under the tyranny of the few. Judges like this are what people fought and died to get away FROM!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2005, 04:45 PM | #9 |
The Intermittent One
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ok so this is just a subscription post for me, but i do want to comment on one thing: tyranny????
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03-16-2005, 04:47 PM | #10 |
Elven Maiden
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Thank you, R*an! Maybe my thread that I don't care about any more will be free now!
My consience (spelling?) tells me I must say something on topic, so... I think that people spend too much time worrying about things, and I think that there's no problem with gay marriage. Well, it could cause problems, but so could a lot of things that no one has any right making illegal. And, this way, I can marry my imaginary female friend and we can share benefits and live more cheaply than if we were alone. And then we can XXX and XXX every night- just kidding! I'm only in it for the money, haha! |
03-16-2005, 04:50 PM | #11 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You're welcome, katya! I saw that you asked specifically in your opening post that we don't talk about this subject, so I wanted to honor that
Moving some of my comments over from the gay/les/bi thread: Neither one of us can prove our worldview; our definition of "harmful" is based on our worldview. Your worldview [I'm speaking to IRex] is agnosticism. And you can't prove you're right. And you base your views on homosexuality on your worldview. My worldview is Christianity. And I can't prove I'm right. And I base my views on homosexuality on my worldview.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-16-2005 at 04:51 PM. |
03-16-2005, 04:55 PM | #12 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
The point is that these Americans wanted a say in their own governance, and didn't want to be dictated to by a few people across the pond.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2005, 04:58 PM | #13 |
The Intermittent One
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no i'm talking about your view that the judge is tyrannical, to me a tyrant is someone along the lines of stalin, hitler, henry II, mussolini, Napoleon I, not a judge who acknowledges a simple human right
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03-16-2005, 05:14 PM | #14 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm using tyranny in the sense of absolute rule of one person against the majority's will.
And many good, honest, caring, thoughtful people disagree with you that it's a matter of a "simple human right" To them (and to me), keeping marriage male/female is the same thing as keeping marriage between consenting adults, between not-closely-related people, between those not already married, etc. IOW, we can and should define who can marry, based upon our opinions of what marriage should be for the best of society.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-16-2005, 05:16 PM | #15 |
The Intermittent One
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to quote jean luc picard:
"Who are we to determine the next course of evolution for this people?" |
03-16-2005, 05:41 PM | #16 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As he says, "who are we to determine"? Why should that judge determine it? Who said that HIS opinion is correct? Why not let the people vote on it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-16-2005, 05:51 PM | #17 | |
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03-16-2005, 06:07 PM | #18 | |||
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What is traditional marriage if not those two defenitions?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-16-2005, 06:10 PM | #19 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
My solution is to let people vote - one person, one vote. It's not perfect - but it's much less subject to abuse, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-16-2005, 06:15 PM | #20 |
The Intermittent One
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social utopian anarchy (note that i use anarchy in it's correct cntect, the absence of government, not people running round with torches looting, and hitting people on the heads like gandalf did to denethor)
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