06-08-2004, 09:50 PM | #1 | |
Elf Lord
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WHAT really Gandalf said to Balrog?
"You can not pass.
I am a Servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass" I can't help not to notice the comment on Gandalf's encounter with Balrog. Quote:
But then why he was making some kind of chanting, TALKING to Balrog in the first place instead of doing something? What was really going on on the bridge? What the meaning of Gandalf's words? |
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06-08-2004, 10:03 PM | #2 |
Hobbit
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As for the meaning of his words, the line, "weilder of the flame of Anor" can be translated as the weilder of the flame of the Sun. Gandalf's magic always were with fire, so this line perhaps emphasises his power.
The Balrog, being the "flame of Udun" is used because the Balrogs were the most terrible and greatest of Melkor's servants, and this Balrog can be presumed as being the last remnant of Melkor's realm, and his cheif ancient fortress, Utumno or Udun. Unfortunately, my understanding doesn't go deeper than that, so I doubt I will be of much help to you.
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06-08-2004, 10:11 PM | #3 | |
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Re: WHAT really Gandalf said to Balrog?
Quote:
Wird es mehr unglaublich als der Letste sein?
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06-08-2004, 10:18 PM | #4 |
Long lost mooter
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Because there is power in words.
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06-09-2004, 02:14 AM | #5 |
Fëanorophobic
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Udun is not Utumno, Erkenbrand. Udun is that valley behind the Black Gate of Mordor; it is connected to the rest of Mordor through the Isenmouthe (check your map).
As to "servant of the secret fire" and "wielder of the flame of Anor"; I think Gandalf is referring to his wielding of the ring of fire Narya. I think that Tolkien has written something to that extent in "Of the rings of power and the Third age" in the Sil. but I can't remember it offhand. And I think that he used words before fighting the Balrog (for fight him he did) only to demonstrate his authority and power as an emissary of the Valar themselves. |
06-09-2004, 04:49 AM | #6 |
Hobbit
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Oh, er .. I was always under then impression that Udun was a different name for Utumno, a less common name of Utumno that Sauron used to name that valley in Mordor. I thought it was elvish for Utumno are something.
I'm really not sure now. I think you are right about Narya though. It was another way that he harnessed his power through fire, and the fact that it was secretly given to him, hence "servant of the secret fire", a reference to Narya, "and wielder of the flame of Anor" could also refer to Narya but also to his power and magic in the use of fire.
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06-09-2004, 11:27 AM | #7 |
founder of the color blue
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No. No. All wrong, wrong wrong wrong. The balrog, in his primitive tounge, said, whats up, Gandalf, wanna run for a beer?
Gandalf, who knew the Balrog before he (the balrog) fell into league with Morgoth, didnt want to look like he was abandoning the Fellowship, but he really needed a beer, plus, it would be nice to hang out with ol' Ted (the balrog's name when he was still counted among the Maiar) for a while. So he motioned to the Balrog that he had to go, and Ted suggested that he (Gandalf) make up some crap about Udun and Anor, and be all dramatic, then they would break the bridge and fall down, down to darkness, where Amos (a Maiar bartender) kept his bar, called "The Dark Pit". So they chilled for a while, shot the ****, caught up on old times, and finally, Gandalf decided to leave. Just as he left, a glacier migrated into Amos' bar, destroying the balrog and freezing all the beer. And that's the rest of the story.
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Well, there it is. |
06-09-2004, 11:51 AM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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So that's why he said he wandered paths he could not tell, forgot much that he knew, and remembered much that he had forgotten. I've had a few nights like that myself.
IIRC, Udun is BOTH a bit of the map of Mordor and a First Age word for Angband or Utumno or some such balrog-infested pit. EDIT: looked it up on Encyclopedia of Arda: it says Udun is a Sindarin word for Utumno as well as being that bit at the north-west of Morder. Last edited by The Gaffer : 06-09-2004 at 11:53 AM. |
06-09-2004, 11:58 AM | #9 |
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Beor... Gaffer... art thou too among the conspriracy theorists?
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06-09-2004, 12:05 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Mate, I don't think I have ever been able to work out a single one of Olmer's posts (no offence), so YEAH count me in! Alien elves based in the underground ruins of Atlantis were manipulating hobbits through the medium of Gandalf to prepare the way for the One True King (Elvis) to take the throne.
Unfortunately it all went horribly wrong when hobbits invented the hamburger enema and the auld fella disappeared up his own arse. |
06-09-2004, 01:05 PM | #11 | |
Fëanorophobic
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Quote:
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06-09-2004, 03:09 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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06-09-2004, 11:56 PM | #13 |
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I have always suspected that "flame of Anor" had something to do with Narya, the ring of fire, which Mithrandar bore. I suspect that "the secret fire' rerers to the "the flame imperishable', a sort of a holy spirit/creative force part of Illuvatar.
Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 06-10-2004 at 12:00 AM. |
06-10-2004, 05:48 AM | #14 | |
Fëanorophobic
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Quote:
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06-10-2004, 10:03 AM | #15 | |
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This is an interesting discussion!
About Gandalf stopping and saying words. I think that something to note in all of this is that the conventional idea of what balrogs look like might be fallacious. I mean, look at Tolkien's description. Quote:
This guy seems more to be perhaps a giant (certainly not bigger than a troll), and surrounded by darkness, shadow. And fear. I think that the Fellowship assumed that Gandalf could handle the Balrog, at first, because his nature was more of something otherwordly and evil- not just some big monster. When the Fellowship were running for the Bridge, Gandalf and the Balrog had a bit of a 'wizard's battle' before, over that door that Gandalf shut against it. It was a battle of their.... magical powers (forgive the term). So when the Balrog came to the bridge, I think it was not Gandalf shouting a challenge to the Balrog when he spoke, but another battle of 'spells'. Notice how he keeps using the phrase "You cannot pass", almost like a chant or something. I think he was weary from trying keep the door shut behind them that he couldn't come up with any elvish spells, and subsided into a kind of mantra-chant. The Balrog, however, does not reply, and perhaps he decides not to go head to head with Gandalf on a 'magical' level, but instead decides to just crush his frail old body instead. Of course, the theory about the drink of beer sounds pretty good, too.
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06-10-2004, 05:50 PM | #16 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Your note about the Balrog going in verbal battle, "shouting a challenge" first , made me to revise my theory. See if you can add something else. Quote:
By the way Valandil why do you think that your conspiracy theory ( Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" doing it in purely altruistic notions) has more legitimacy than mine (Gandalf and Elves are trying to usurp the throne of Gondor for " a candidate from their own party" because they have some interest in it)? What are you trying to achieve asking people on what side they are? I thought that we are here to discuss and to learn more about the work of the Author of the Century by sharing our thoughts , observations and little findings, no sides taken, and not to make a hostile environment for somebody who didn't think in the majority's way (how very socialistic!) Any way, I don't want you , or anybody to keep in suspense and this theory is nicht mehr unglaublich than any others (thanks for sarcasm!), besides if it won’t be any controversial themes this forum will slowly wilt to a dull Pants Game. People, who can’t figure out what I’m writing about, please, don’t bother straining your brains, skip all my postings, sorry for inconvenience. |
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06-10-2004, 06:29 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
Sorry if this bothered you. I was speaking lightly and in fun... and if you didn't like it, I won't do so again. I guess so many of your previous theories have sounded so far-fetched (to me), I've come to expect the 'off-the-wall' from you. Also - sometimes you DO joke around, so maybe I took this liberty a bit too far. (I was afraid you were going to have Gandalf and the Balrog in league with one another! ) Anyway - I was being 'witty' rather than insightful, thoughtful or kind - and I think Beor and Gaffer kind of got in the same spirit (I suspect anyway - I'll leave it to them to clear it up if I'm wrong). I'm sorry because I know you get that a lot. I certainly didn't mean to call people to take sides or to make the environment more hostile to you. In some ways, I posted what I did because we had a few new members around whom I thought might be taken aback by some of your theories (and you DID get me thinking on one of them recently... I'll bump it up after I finish this post). And yes... even if I might disagree with you forever, this is FAR better than the LOTR book forum being defined by 'The Pants Game' thread (EDIT: Now I hope THAT didn't offend anyone!) So Olmer, I apologize. Peace?
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06-11-2004, 04:47 AM | #18 | |
Elf Lord
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Yes, taken and meant in jest. Apologies if it came across otherwise. I too welcome more discussion and creative thinking in these threads.
On topic, you've raised an interesting question about Words in ME: Quote:
IMO, ME represents an era where language is no mere system of representation, it is integral with the fabric of things. Consider the Oathbreakers for example, or even the rules of the riddling game, which even the wickedest creatures feared to break. |
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06-11-2004, 02:03 PM | #19 | |
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Yes, good point about language. Reminds me of the bit in HoME 3, The Lays of Beleriand, where Finrod and Sauron are "fighting" - it's language only!
Here it is - the first "He" refers to Thu, or Sauron, and Felagund is Finrod Felegund, the elven-king : Quote:
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06-14-2004, 05:49 AM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for sharing that! It reminds me also of Tom Bombadil's songs, and of course, that the world was created with Music.
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