Nazgûl in the Prancing Pony?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Could you clarify this position? Just when do you think Sauron knew Frodo had the Ring? Even if the washed-out Nazgul reported to him that Frodo had the Ring at the ford, there was no reason for Sauron to think the Elves, the Rangers, and Gandalf would let him hang on to it.

I don't think Sauron knew Frodo had the Ring until he put it on and claimed it at Mount Doom.

Perhaps my beef should be more with Sauron being either too stupid - or lacking truly capable intelligence/spies - to know when to act but here's where he could have ended it early:

- in Three Is Company when the "strange voice" questioned the Gaffer and the "rider" was oh-so-close

- in "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" when the "rider" questioned Maggot

- in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" when, on the ferry, the hobbits saw the "rider"

- in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" when Frodo disappeared and the swarthy Breelander slipped out, followed by the squint-eyed Southerner

- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.

Indeed, Sauron did not lack for opportunities.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Perhaps my beef should be more with Sauron being either too stupid - or lacking truly capable intelligence/spies - to know when to act but here's where he could have ended it early:

In UT (HR-the Hunt for the Ring) it is said that

Sauron probably had very little power yet in Eriador, and few agents there; and such as he sent were often hindered or misled by the servants of Saruman.

In hindsight it would have been better if he sent some mortal Men, maybe Black Numenoreans disguised as rangers, instead of the Nazgul, but for that he had to know the situation around the Shire, which he didn't.
Then again Sauron was paranoid about a mortal Man stealing his Ring.
Also Sauron (and the nazgul) were afraid that the Ring was not held by the hobbit anymore, but by a person of far more power.

Originally Posted by Jon S

- in Three Is Company when the "strange voice" questioned the Gaffer and the "rider" was oh-so-close
- in "A Short Cut to Mushrooms" when the "rider" questioned Maggot
- in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" when, on the ferry, the hobbits saw the "rider"

In all cases it was ol' Khamûl the Easterling of Dol Guldur.
Consider that of the Nine he was the one who felt the most confused in daylight. Also he likely didn't speak good Westron. And, like Saruman, the nazgul were aware of Faramir's dream-words and expected some move between Shire and Rivendell. Khamul didn't really expect to find "the Baggins" at Bag End.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

- in "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" when Frodo disappeared and the swarthy Breelander slipped out, followed by the squint-eyed Southerner
- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.

The problem of the nazgul was that only the Witch-King and Khamul could sense the Ring really well. And neither of them was in Bree while the hobbits were there. The WK was still at Andrath, guarding the access to Breeland from the South from rangers and Elves and Khamul was at Crickhollow.

The two nazgul in Bree were just... well...not too good to put it mildly: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop.

And really the most obvious reason for their failure is that they had no luck at all. Fortune favors good guys... Sauron knew it quite well:

The wrath and fear of Sauron then may be guessed; yet if there was any in the world in whom he trusted it was the Lord of Angmar; and if his wrath were lessened by perceiving that his great servant had defeated by ill chance (and the craft of the Wise) rather than by faults of his own, his fear would be the more – seeing what power was yet in his Enemies, and how sharply fortune favoured them at each turn when all seemed lost. - RC p.262

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

- also at the Prancing Pony, in "A Knife in the Dark," when the Nazgul were literally in the same "motel" as the Ring.

Indeed, Sauron did not lack for opportunities.

Despite two movies, there is no canonical evidence that any of the Nazgul ever entered "The Prancing Pony." Most feel that Bill Ferny and the Soutron destroyed the bolsters &c.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Despite two movies, there is no canonical evidence that any of the Nazgul ever entered "The Prancing Pony." Most feel that Bill Ferny and the Soutron destroyed the bolsters &c.

It is another old debate...
The opinion you give, Attalus, is based, as far as I know, on Aragorn's words:

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

The contrary opinion, (that it were the nazgul who vandalized the hobbit-sized room), used to have no textual support - but now it can be backed by the quote from "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC p. 166

In Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) it is said that the three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king].... [He] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day.... [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night.. .. The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. Crickhollow attacked at about the same time.... Both attacks fail. [The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-king] to report that Bearer has gone (without waiting for further news). [The three from Crickhollow] ride down the Buckland Gate and make also for Andrath...The Nazgûl are thus all assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] is exceedingly wroth

Choose what you believe more...

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It is another old debate...
The opinion you give, Attalus, is based, as far as I know, on Aragorn's words:

The contrary opinion, (that it were the nazgul who vandalized the hobbit-sized room), used to have no textual support - but now it can be backed by the quote from "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC p. 166

Choose what you believe more...

I think it could be the two nazgul - it wouldn't have been an open attack, but done by stealth in the dark. The hobbits had made sure to be well out of the way anyway, so there were nobody trying to defend the room, and no confrontation.

[Attalus]

*shrug* "The Hunt for the Ring" is NOT canonical.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Attalus

*shrug* "The Hunt for the Ring" is NOT canonical.

I would agree with Attalus if that is the case.

Can anyone list briefly what works of Tolkien that are canon?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Can anyone list briefly what works of Tolkien that are canon?

Do you understand what a can of worms it is?
People often argue to death over it.

[Alcuin]

Wait, I’m aghast. When I read Lord of the Rings, I never considered that anyone other than the Nazgûl had attacked the hobbits’ room at the inn. But I can see the other side of the argument, that Ferny and his orcish, squint-eyed companion attacked the inn, although I don’t agree with it. (There was at least one Nazgûl in the town, after all: Merry had Black Breath from it, right?)

But if the text allows for two interpretations, and then we have a long, drawn-out discussion of what the Nazgûl were doing – “The Hunt for the Ring” in this case – how can we just dismiss it without some indication that this was not what Tolkien intended? Otherwise, are we not merely flailing at one another with nothing but opinion, regardless of where the evidence takes us?

Surely this shrug was meant partly in jest?

Besides, what it is “canon” in Tolkien’s corpus is a matter of dispute as well. According to his son Christopher, Tolkien apparently tried to keep everything he subsequently wrote in agreement with what was published in Lord of the Rings. All the other material – including Silmarillion, according to some argumentive posters I’ve encountered – are not “canonical.” The most reliable source of what is and is not “canon” would have to be Christopher Tolkien, but as far as I can recall, he has not published a list or an order of what he considers his father’s intentions in every case.

[Jon S.]

What I can't fathom is why it matters to my point who it was who attacked at the Inn. My point remains that Sauron had agents at the scene and at the moment Frodo disappeared, had Sauron marshalled his will and full forces right then to take the Ring, it would have been finis. Now you can think of every reason you like for why he didn't but, in retrospect, it cost Sauron everything.

[Gordis]

My point remains that Sauron had agents at the scene and at the moment Frodo disappeared, had Sauron marshalled his will and full forces right then to take the Ring, it would have been finis.

I really don't see what you want to say. Do you mean the moment when Frodo mistakenly put on the Ring in Bree?

May I remind you that Sauron was far-far away and couldn't possibly feel that his Ring was put on? He couldn't even communicate with his nazgul at such a distance. And the nazgul couldn't communicate with each other at a distance: to report they had to ride to the WK as any ordinary men would.

Also, the Nazgul "feeling" the Ring being put on is nothing but PJ's invention, with no support in the text. Instead the nazgul had to rely on the Southerner and Bill to tell them about the events in the inn:

'What will Ferny sell, and what has my accident got to do with him?' said Frodo, still determined not to understand Strider's hints.
'News of you, of course,' answered Strider. 'An account of your performance would be very interesting to certain people. After that they would hardly need to be told your real name. It seems to me only too likely that they will hear of it before this night is over.

[Jon S.]

I have to admit, I'm not 100% certain what I wanted to say, either (it was early Sat. AM before coffee! ) but I guess I feel that Sauron had enough lead time to know the general whereabouts of the Ring by then and agents already in place so it's my gut that he blew a golden opportunity there.

After all, you yourself quoted Aragorn, in cannonical context , as saying that it would be only a matter of hours ("before this night is over") that word had gone out.

Put it this way: if our government had serious intelligence that, 8 hours earlier, someone had been definitely spotted travelling by foot with the power equivalent

of a nuclear weapon do you believe it would be treated as cavalierly as Sauron when the Ring was located in Bree? (Then again, knowing our government ... )

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I would agree with Attalus if that is the case.
Can anyone list briefly what works of Tolkien that are canon?

The shrug is quite literal. The Canon is anything published in JRRT's lifetime, with his permission. Given the amount of rewriting and reinvention he did, all anything published by his estate after his death can be regarded as notaional at best. Remember the infamous chapter in Sil '77 that CRT admitted making up.
Plus, remember that the Inn was guarded all night, and that the entry of a Nazgul is anything but subtle. I agree with Gordis that the Nazgul could not 'feel' the Ring unless its Bearer puts it on. They certainly rode right by it several times without noticing it. Aragon may have thought that the Ring 'drew them,' but as JRRT often remarked, none of his characters is omniscient.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

After all, you yourself quoted Aragorn, in cannonical context , as saying that it would be only a matter of hours ("before this night is over") that word had gone out.

The word has gone out - but not to Sauron! Not even to the Witch-king - only to these three losers in Bree.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

] I feel that Sauron had enough lead time to know the general whereabouts of the Ring by then and agents already in place so it's my gut that he blew a golden opportunity there.

Not really, IMO. Sauron was not able to follow the Hunt. The last bit he heard (from Saruman via the Palantir) was that his nazgul had finally got directions to "the Shire" which was "northwest from Isengard some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country," and went past Isengard to Eriador.

[Saruman to the Nazgul:] "You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so. -UT, The Hunt, version C"

That was on September 18. The Bree incident with Frodo was on September 29.
It was absolutely impossible to send any troops, or spies, or messengers from Mordor to Bree in 10 days. Sauron had to rely solely on his nazgul and on what help they would manage to obtain among the locals.
Next Sauron heard about the Hunt was when the Witch-King returned to Mordor defeated - ahead of the others, and it was at the end of November.

I mean, Sauron was out of it. He sent his nazgul - his most terrible and most trusted servants. What else could he do? Come to the Shire himself? He would be too late anyway…

Now the Witch-King (one step down the Mordor chain of command ). He was in charge of the operation and got all the blame for its failure (maybe rightly). But let us look at his actions around the end of September, following the "Hunt for the Ring" texts:

He sent 5 nazgul (under Khamul) into the Shire, while 3 "were left to guard the eastern borders, to watch the Greenway, and guard against Elves or Dunedain coming from eastwards". Later some of the nazgul were making inquiries in Bree and patrolling the Great Road all the way to Weathertop.

The WK himself chose not to enter the Shire or the Bree-land, but to remain a day's ride South of Bree, at Andrath, to achieve several goals:

1. To visit the Barrow-Downs and rouse the Barrow-Wights and all things of evil on the Dawns and in the Old Forest (including Old Man Willow, most likely). This task likely involved a high level of sorcery and power of command over the Wights, so it couldn't have been given to an underling. Also it was Tom's territory - so the task could have turned quite dangerous. But it was necessary, because the Ringbearer, aware of the pursuit could very well try to avoid the road and go through the Old Forest and BD. That was exactly what had happened.

2. To coordinate the operations in the Shire, Bree, and Weathertop.

3. To make sure that nobody comes up the Greenway to hinder them.

The last part is interesting and not commented upon by Tolkien. Who could possibly come from the South? In versions A and B of the Hunt (UT) it was Gandalf who the nazgul knew had just escaped from Orthanc and was hurrying behind them. But in version C Gandalf was still imprisoned in Orthanc, as far as they knew.
So - maybe - the WK expected Saruman, thinking along the lines of my first post?

The nazgul knew beyond doubt that Saruman had lied to them shamelessly. In versions A and B of the Hunt (UT) he "denied all knowledge of the Shire". In version C, Saruman said that he had no idea about it, until he made Gandalf confess while the nazgul waited by the Gate of Orthanc. And then they overtook Saruman's spy who had maps of the Shire and even lists of names! So Saruman was a traitor and either still worked for the White council, or wanted the Ring himself. So what if he rushes to the Shire to steal the Ring? What if he comes in Gandalf's company? A Maia was a formidable threat even for the Lord of the nazgul - and what about two Maiar?

So I believe the WK had excellent reasons to remain at Andrath. It was not really his fault that Khamul and the guys in Bree proved to be so incompetent. Then again, the nazgul were likely never meant to be a small commando force operating entirely on their own so far from Mordor.

[Alcuin]

Aragorn told the hobbits that attacking a town was not the modus operandi of the Nazgûl. When Merry asked if they would attack the Prancing Pony, Aragorn answered,

No, I think not… They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.

The Nazgûl had no idea that the Rangers were Dúnedain, I believe. Even had they known that much, they certainly had no notion who Aragorn was! He lost them and their aids – whether men or horses – in the Chetwood.

The chokepoints in the journey for Rivendell – for that was now clearly the destination of the Ringbearer – would be at Weathertop, the Last Bridge over the Mitheithel, and the Ford of Bruinen. The Witch-king was quite familiar with the geography from his wars against Arnor as ruler of Angmar, and these three points were indeed where the hobbits and the Ranger met their foes.

Without Aragorn in Bree, a few (two or three?) Nazgûl would have seized Frodo and his companions in the Inn.

Without Aragorn at Weathertop, five Nazgûl would have seized Frodo and his companions in the little dell.

Without the intervention of Glorfindel at the Last Bridge, Aragorn did not believe he could cross the Mitheithel without going far north into the Ettenmoors.

Without the intervention of Elrond at the Ford of Bruinen (via the flood he commanded), even with Aragorn and Glorfindel, the Witch-king would probably have seized Frodo and the Ring.

The Nazgûl were not incompetent. They were not stupid. They were not weak. They were somewhat limited in their senses in the everyday world, and they scared the snuff out of everything they met and so were not masters of the art of hiding like nine ninjas, but they were not helpless. They were formidable hunters, and even Glorfindel and Aragorn on foot were no match for them: the Nazgûl were destroyed in the raging Bruinen because Aragorn and Glorfindel spooked their horses.

Saruman was a problem for the Nazgûl: he was clearly not trustworthy after their encounter with him at Orthanc, and he might be able to interfere with their mission or even seize the Ring himself. For all they knew, Radagast and Gandalf were in league with him; and if Sauron imagined that one of the Wise had taken and sought to use the Ring to displace him as Dark Lord, what did the Nazgûl believe the Wizards and the Eldar intended to do with the Ring? Toss it into Orodruin?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Aragorn told the hobbits that attacking a town was not the modus operandi of the Nazgûl. When Merry asked if they would attack the Prancing Pony, Aragorn answered,

"No, I think not… They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us."

That would imply then that the Nazgûl, the most trusted servants of Sauron,
were not desperate to get hold of the One Ring, Sauron's last obstacle to some serious wielding of power and rule of all Middle Earth, in a situation where they knew the Ring was going to Rivendell? Let's remember that the Nazgûl at this stage had been unable to catch three, four defenseless, slow-moving halflings between the Shire and Bree. That in itself is a feat and should certainly have rung some bells beneath their hoods! 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles through Eriador, I just don't see the Nazgûl staying hesitant at this point in time.
These are creatures which fear pretty much nothing except for Sauron's wrath, and when in a position to indefinitely please their Master, they are concerned that a few intoxicated locals might cause a stir as they grab the thing they most desire in the entire world?! Let me repeat that again: They are concerned(!), these Nazgûl(!), that a few(!) intoxicated(!) locals(!! Not exactly knights of Gondor or High Elves of Rivendell!!) might cause a stir as they grab the thing they most desire in the entire world.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Nazgûl were not incompetent.

Incompetent. Ineffective.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

They were not stupid.

Not stupid. But they were pretty average weren't they? It's not like they were chasing three hobbits with PhD right?

Originally Posted by Alcuin

They were not weak. They were somewhat limited in their senses in the everyday world, and they scared the snuff out of everything they met and so were not masters of the art of hiding like nine ninjas, but they were not helpless.

Not physically weak. But you start wondering about the mental strength when such hooded wraiths of terrifying death, who "scared the snuff out of everything they met", decided it best not to perform a little shock and awe
in, of all challenging places, an Inn.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

They were formidable hunters, and even Glorfindel and Aragorn on foot were no match for them: the Nazgûl were destroyed in the raging Bruinen because Aragorn and Glorfindel spooked their horses.

It's striking then that the formidable hunters that the Nazgûl were managed the impressive feat of not catching up with three halflings who lacked both sword, shield and stallion, who were no strangers to sleeping, breakfasts and dinners, and mushroom!, in terrain that, to put it mildly, would have Bushmen in Botswana or Native Americans in the Amazon down on their knees laughing.

This is not to take away the interesting analysis in this discussion. Looking forward to reading more

[Attalus]

One reason that the Nazgul did not try to enter the Inn and tear up the bolsters is that without their horses they could not see in lighted areas. Hence, it would make more sense to send their henchmen to murder the Hobbits and bring their corpses out by stealth. As to why they did not attack the Inn itself, I think Aragorn's answer is as good as any. They also didn't know that Gandalf was not there, and he was more than their match at that stage.

[Jon S.]

I'd like to thank all of you for your excellent, thoughtful, thought-provoking responses. They are leading me to revise some of my preconceptions of who and what the Nazgul were, what they could or could not do, and the nature of Saruon's control and management of his minions. On the last point particularly, my entire life's experience with management and organizational issues is that an inflexible hierarchical arrangement maintained on the basis of fear rather than vision & duty leads to underlings who are hesitant and uncreative. Perhaps, more than anything else, this explains the ineptitude (yes, I still view it as ineptitude) of Saruon's Nazgul and human servants in the Shire and Bree regions.

[CAB]

I have a tough time seeing the Nazgul as incompetent. The task they were given was far more difficult than is generally recognized. The story was written so as to make Frodo's journey to Rivendell seem nearly impossible, yet the Nazguls' job was hardly easy.

Since the land was largely empty and lonely, it is hard to see the situation this way, but the Nazgul were actually deep in enemy territory. The had practically no allies, servants, or support nearby. Sauron's spy network (aka: potential aid for the Nazgul) was so weak in the region that they (originally) had no idea where the Shire was. This, I think, is mostly due to the unheralded work of the Rangers. The most evil neighborhood in the area was inhabited by a Maia (or being, if you prefer) who could end a wight's existence with a few words. Groups of High Elves were wandering around and all the might of Rivendell was nearby. Gandalf showed up. Were Saruman and Radagast nearby? Glorfindel showed up. Was he really alone or was he leading a force out of Rivendell, as he had done before?

Despite their failure, I believe it can be argued that the Nazgul hunted the Ring umm…correctly. They confronted Frodo at the first "chokepoint" that Alcuin mentioned. There they received quite a shock: a barrow-blade wielding Ringbearer (apparently) capable of defeating a wight, who was (apparently) in league with the Noldor. Even so, the Witch King managed to give Frodo a wound which should have brought him under the Nazguls' control. Later, the Nazgul had to deal with Glorfindel and Elrond.

Regarding the Nazgul not attacking the Inn, I'm not sure whether to call this a blunder or not (at least while ignoring the 20/20 hindsight, of course). Rivendell was far away, Bree was populous, the Nazgul were attempting to be secretive, and they had no way of knowing that Gandalf and Glorfindel would become involved. On the other hand, the Ring was right there and neither Gandalf nor Elves were nearby, a situation which was likely to change. I think Jon hit on the correct answer here. The lesser Nazgul on their own were incapable of making the decision to attack Bree and the Witch King was far away.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

On the last point particularly, my entire life's experience with management and organizational issues is that an inflexible hierarchical arrangement maintained on the basis of fear rather than vision & duty leads to underlings who are hesitant and uncreative. Perhaps, more than anything else, this explains the ineptitude (yes, I still view it as ineptitude) of Saruon's Nazgul and human servants in the Shire and Bree regions.

Good observation. The movie presents nazgul as single-minded beings entirely obsessed with getting the Ring. But in the text they are quite different - quite human in fact. They know fear, they can get upset, they can get angry and hysterical.
Their first concern is not for the Ring, but for their own hide. They fear getting killed - more than an average Man or Elf. That is because, if killed, they would become powerless spirits still under Sauron's control, without any interaction with the physical plane, doomed to roam ME forever (or until the Rings have power). If they want the Ring, it is only to avoid Sauron's wrath and punishment. Indeed this approach doesn't lead to much creativity and enthusiasm.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Let me repeat that again: They are concerned(!), these Nazgûl(!), that a few(!) intoxicated(!) locals(!! Not exactly knights of Gondor or High Elves of Rivendell!!) might cause a stir as they grab the thing they most desire in the entire world.

I think the nazgul did not attack the common room, just because they were so few - not because they were afraid of locals, but because they feared to lose their prey.
Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table.
What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away.
And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south.
Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly.