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03-16-2005, 01:22 AM | #1 | |||||
Cyber Elf Lord
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LotR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider
Book III Chapter V The White Rider This chapter, IMHO, starts off as one of the low points for the remaining members of the Fellowship of the Ring. The Fellowship is scattered in several areas.
Summary After four days of pursuit, they (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) are making a last effort search for Merry and Pippin starting from their camp near the battle site of the orcs and Rohan riders. The general plan for the day's events was stated by Aragorn: We should begin here, near to our own camping-ground, searching carefully all about, and working up the slope towards the forest. To find the hobbits is our errand, whatever we may think of our visitor in the night. If they [the hobbits] escaped by some chance, then they must have hidden in the trees, or they would have been seen. If we find nothing between here and the eaves of the wood, then we will make a last search upon the battle-field and among the ashes. But there is little hope there: the horsemen of Rohan did their work too well. For some time the companions looked for signs of the hobbits. Finally, their persistence is rewarded. They find clues of a hobbit. They are able to piece together parts of the riddle of how the hobbits escaped and conclude that at least one of the hobbits must have fled into Fangorn forest. They decide to enter Fangorn forest in pursuit of their friends. After some time in the forest, the companions see definite signs of Merry and Pippin by the water bank. Feeling encouraged, they follow the signs of the hobbits further into the forest. During their search, Legolas spots an old man. Immediately the companions are cautious and draw their weapons. Gimli encourages Legolas to draw his arrow, as the old man (whom the group thinks may be Saruman) approaches. They hold their fire, since as Aragorn states: “We may not shoot an old man so, unawares and unchallenged, whatever fear or doubt be on us. Watch and wait!”. After some tense moments and brief dialog, they recognize the old man as Gandalf. Gandalf is different than how they remember him when they last saw him in Moria. Quote:
Although not much action happens in this chapter, there are several questions that come to the reader's attention Questions to consider:
Related threads: Gandalf the White
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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03-16-2005, 01:28 AM | #2 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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03-16-2005, 01:31 AM | #3 | |
King of Nargothrond
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If I mayadress this...GGandalf states that Victory can only be assured by using the ring...while this was nowhere rescinded by anyone. What was said at the council was that anyone attempting to use use the ring may have victory or gain great power, they would become corrupted.
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03-16-2005, 07:48 AM | #4 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
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Well done mithrand1r! Interesting questions. Here are my two cents:
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- Gandalf and Saruman being of the same "order" (i.e. Maiar) could perceive each other's thoughts. That, however, seems unlikely because it implies that Gandalf can see the mind of Sauron as well. - Reading minds is the one of the things that Gandalf "remembered" and was (as most of his powers) limited to certain people. -It's a new ability that he gained after he became "the White". Quote:
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Last edited by Beren3000 : 03-21-2005 at 07:51 AM. |
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03-16-2005, 08:54 AM | #5 | |||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Very good intro mithrandir!
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Hope to reply more later ...
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03-16-2005, 11:46 AM | #6 |
The Intermittent One
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nice intro, i dont know how much of this i will be able to answer - i am not very good at analytical questions (ask my history lecturer - D for Coursework ) but i will try later
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03-16-2005, 01:58 PM | #7 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
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Gandalf also made several things/events clearer for the reader when he made his mind plainer to Aragorn.
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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03-17-2005, 06:52 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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well, i don't know how much "action" happens in this chapter but in some ways its one of the most important (i'm not going to try an qualify that!!) chapters - essentialy (do you agree?) its the real turning of the tide: it reveals so much (and asks so many questions) about gandalf / Mithrandir (etc) and the order of wizards: do we agree that in purley mortal (M/earth) terms gandalf died despite defeateting the Balrog of Morgoth, but due to his (in parrallel with both Bilbo and frodo's pity and mercy heart / soul dealings with the ring) true dealings with his cause in Midlle earth he was (as it were - promoted) and sent back until his task was achieved (or not?). He went out of time and space in a duality (between M/earth mortality and being Istari (is that right? I'm going to bed in a min as i'm about as coherrent as a rabbit!) therefore was as it were caught in time, but sent back he was almost in some ways a different person, not at heart or core, but in terms of the spirit: he could see things afar or across time but things (more mortal humdrum specialism) close to hand were almost blind to him (eg the name Gandalf) although once he remembers the name mithrandir appears to quickly catch backup.
er hope that makes any sense?? - im off to bed, night all, butterbeer |
03-17-2005, 11:56 PM | #9 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
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From reading the chapter, I do get a sense that Gandalf's physical body did die and he was returned by the powers that be (probably because his labors were not complete).
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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03-18-2005, 05:53 AM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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despite the long flowing robes, i never quite saw Gandalf as a queen (?)
- otherwise i think its a very good analogy! I suppose to be lighthearted about it then the Ring itself is the King (i think its too slow and vulnerable to be Aragorn) - the Knights seem obvious and for me the Two towers have to be Gimli (well one of them). |
03-21-2005, 01:28 AM | #11 | |||||
Elven Warrior
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03-22-2005, 04:49 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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That is a good question. Mortals/Elves cannot hurt mayars, but I think they are usually able to hurt their body. So perhaps Gandaf the white is bragging a bit too much?
well i think you've almost already answered this in your previous answer: IMHO gandalf is still in this sense thinking of the larger picture of Iluvatar (as you say recently refreshed) rather than worrying about his mortal body in ME. ... Kinda bit of me somewhere agrees bit 'bout the brag though - but hey! he's back! he's fresh!, he's alive! and he's powerful back now with his friends (who met in the nick of time else who might not have)at the turn of the tide! Fair play Gandalf! After all you come back from death and days as long as eons (wow think about it!), even the best of swords made in the deeps of time etc are not going to really bother you too much are they (when its your friends who you know and trust that 'ave em - (delia does middle earth!) |
03-23-2005, 02:49 PM | #13 | |
Fëanorophobic
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10-11-2005, 10:01 PM | #14 | ||
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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10-25-2005, 09:55 AM | #15 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Or maybe he was still feeling the head-rush from his upgrade from Grey to White. The "I'm invincible!" premise. Quote:
I don't remember this chapter too fondly. My sis managed to spoil a lot of it by spilling earlier that Gandalf wasn't dead yet after Moria and that he would return. (Yes, yes, I'm late in entering this discussion. I've got over a book to catch up in the discussion. Better late than never, as Éomer will say in a few chapters. )
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