12-15-2006, 12:34 AM | #1 |
Hobbit
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A couple unreleated questions...
Question one is this. The Uruk-hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins, what is the difference between Orcs and Goblins then? I saw none before...
Question two is this. After his death-thing, Gandalf became Gandalf the white. Does this mean that at some point Saruman had died too? Question three is this. The Trolls in the Hobbit could speak but then, in the Lord of the Rings, the Trolls seemed unable to talk. How's that work?
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12-15-2006, 08:32 AM | #2 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Quote:
1. Most readers do consider Orcs and Goblins to be the same thing. There may be some different racial characteristics among various groups (just as there are among people). I don't think the Uruk-hai are called "crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins" (if you've seen that statement in print - can you point it out?). But they were especially developed - just as some might try to develop a certain breed of dog or something - trying to enhance the characteristics that are desired and minimize those which are not. The "half-orcs" that Tolkien talks about appear to be a Human-Orc mix... scary thought, huh? 2. No - when you get into some of the background information - even in the LOTR Appendices, but also in "The Silmarillion" and "Unfinished Tales" - you get a better idea of just who and what the Istari really are. Saruman always was "the White" - ever since arriving in Middle Earth. It might be more accurate to say that Gandalf was given his "office" - or his "role" when he returned after his defeat of the Balrog, signifying Saruman's falling and failure (due to his unfaithfulness to his purpose - not his death). 3. Hmmm... smart Trolls vs dumb Trolls? Trolls who were mute, or whose tongues had been removed? Enraged Trolls in battle never speak? (they only talk around a campfire - and when nobody else is around - except maybe those they've already trapped and consider "dinner"). But... it's really more true to the writing process to know that "The Hobbit" began as a children's tale, and while some of Tolkien's big ideas got added to it, it remained that. LOTR began as a sequel to "The Hobbit" - but turned into a great epic. So Tolkien just decided to keep the Trolls quiet, I guess.
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12-15-2006, 07:55 PM | #3 |
Hobbit
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For number one, no, I haven't seen it in writing. But in the FotR movie Saruman said that Orcs were once Elves, and that "Orcs crossed with Goblin men" [Or something along those lines] were what the Uruks were. That's what confused me, because the likeness of Orcs and Goblins. That's all.
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12-15-2006, 08:07 PM | #4 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Ah - well that statement in the movie wasn't really based on anything in the books.
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12-16-2006, 08:20 AM | #5 |
Hobbit
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I was beginning to think such. Thanks for the helpful answers!
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
12-23-2006, 01:38 AM | #6 |
Hobbit
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Just when were the wraiths born, not as men, but as the nine? Prior to the first war of the ring, it must have been, right?
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
12-23-2006, 04:45 AM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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The nazgul became as such somewhere between 1697 S.A., the year of the death of Celebrimbor and of (probably) the recovery of the rings and 2251 S.A., the time when the ringwraiths are documented to appear.
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12-23-2006, 06:38 PM | #8 |
Hobbit
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Thanks for the specifics, but it doesn't help much. I'm not educated in Middle-Earth histories. Is that also the time of the war, or no? All I need is to know if the wraiths were present before the war of the ring, or during, and if not, how long after before the nine were The Nine.
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12-23-2006, 06:46 PM | #9 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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The wraiths were present for a bit over 1000 year before the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (which you might mean as the first war of the ring - although Sauron had made war on the Elves before that War - and before the wraiths appeared). The War of the Last Alliance was about 3000 years before the events of "The Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings" - so they were around for over 4000 years as wraiths.
It takes a little while to learn your history, and it comes a little at time ... just keep at it.
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12-24-2006, 05:47 PM | #10 |
Hobbit
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Thanks. I'm going to be doing a D&D-Gone-Middle-Earth game, and I'm working on the beasties now. I didn't want to do it in the third age, because people might feel the need to associate themselves with Aragorn or other important characters. So, I'm using (I guess ) the Second Age as the setting, hoping it will be unfamiliar enough to make them be independent from alot of cannon characters. I just needed to know who was there. I have modified orcs, and the wraiths, and trolls as well, care to give some other suggestions? I'm off to build some monsters then, thanks again for the help.
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
12-26-2006, 03:11 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Well, in terms of settings you could do a lot with the Old Forest and Moria, and you've got Gundabad as a ready made fortress of evil. In terms of flora and fauna, you've got eagles, dragons, spiders, ents, huorns, wolves and wargs, and maybe the mythical stone giants referenced in the Hobbit but nowhere else.
You could do worse than get hold of "A Tolkien Bestiary" by David Day, which is considered dodgy as hell as an accurate source, but has great illustrations and little synopses along with each type of beast. You might even want to post a copy of the scenario in the RPG section to see what people here think. |
12-27-2006, 04:21 AM | #12 |
Hobbit
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Hmh. I think I like both ideas. I'll check into the book, but I'm fond of the post for critique idea in particular. Thanks! I have quite a bit more to accomplish before it gets set in motion, so suggestions can still be made until I start the campaign and the tread will be here for just that.
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
12-27-2006, 04:03 PM | #13 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Look into Decipher's Lord of the Rings roleplaying game. It's not D&D, but I think it's a better system, and for Middle-earth accuracy, you really can't get much better in the RPG field.
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12-28-2006, 02:09 AM | #14 |
Hobbit
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F'real? I heard it wasn't that good, that's the whole reason I was converting things from D&D.
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
12-28-2006, 08:30 PM | #15 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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MERP isn't very good; they take a lot of liberties. Decipher is much better.
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01-02-2007, 05:02 PM | #16 |
Hobbit
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Alright, thanks. I'll check into it for sure.
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"Hey ho! To the pub I go, To heal my heart and drown my woe. Rain my fall and wind may blow, But there still be many miles to go! Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, and the stream that falls from hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook... Is a mug of beer inside this Took!" |
01-07-2007, 09:51 PM | #17 |
Sapling
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Isn't the reason the trolls in LOTR can't speak because they've been turned to stone? Or am I thinking of different trolls?
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01-07-2007, 10:07 PM | #18 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You, I believe, are thinking that the trolls in the Hobbit were turned to stone. I think that in LOTR, it was actually stated that while serving Sauron's will, these particular trolls were immune to petrification, or something similar.
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01-08-2007, 02:51 AM | #19 |
Sapling
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I hadn't read that.. will have to study more!
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01-08-2007, 05:17 PM | #20 | ||
Elven Warrior
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