05-02-2006, 07:56 AM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Were Miriel and Pharazon in love?
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But was it so indeed? Have you noticed that Miriel, born in 3117, when marrying Pharazon, in 3255, was already 138 years old?! No wonder they had no children. Their ancient foremother Tar-Ancalime, the first Ruling Queen of Numernor, married at 127, just for it not to be too late to bear children. And at this time royals lived up to 400, not to 200, as at the time of the Downfall. It is like marrying at 60 in modern times. Now, why didn't Miriel marry someone earlier, in due time? Why didn't Tat-Palantir marry his daughter to somebody, say to Amandil of Andunie, to get a "faithful" heir and to thwart Pharazon's hopes for the throne? The same for Ar-Pharazon. He could have married someone before he reached 137, which was, of course, fairly late. I say there is a strong possibility that these two DID love each other, only, being first cousins, they couldn't get Tar-Parantir's permission to marry. I see it as an only reason why Miriel remained unwed. Tar Palantir was Faithful and a prophet. He was like a King of Old, before the Shadow fell on Numenor, safe in one thing: he didn't lie down his life willingly, but ruled till the hour of his death. Why? I believe he knew of his daughter's love for Pharazon her cousin, and foresaw that right after his death, the ambitious Parazon would easily "persuade" Miriel to marry him. And he failed to make her marry someone else... So he clung to life. And indeed, after the King's death, they married almost instantly. Of course, it is said that it was "against her will", but it might refer only to the fact that she was awed to break the laws of Numenor marrying her first cousin. And note, there was no rebellion of the Faithful. Imagine, someone forces their Rightful Queen, and Faithful to boot into an undesired marriage? I believe Amandil and K would have tried to deliver her. But no, it seems she overcame her "faitheful "fear of the incest and agreed all too willingly at the end. Actually, for Pharazon to get the Sceptre, there was no real necessity to marry his cousin Miriel. PharazĂŽn son of GimilkhĂąd (Tar-Palantir's younger brother), was Miriel's heir anyway, second in line for the Succession at the time when Tar-Palantir died. He could have made her abdicate in his favour (in favour of her cousin, the next heir), as often older sisters did in favour of their younger brothers. But still, Pharazon married her, and made her his Queen, even without hope for children. Why? Perhaps because he loved her. And it was never said that there was no love between them, like for instance in the entry about Inzilbeth and Ar- Gimilzor: " GimilzĂŽr took her to wife, though this was little to her liking, for she was in heart one of the Faithful, being taught by her mother; but the kings and their sons were grown proud and not to be gainsaid in their wishes. No love was there between Ar-GimilzĂŽr and his queen, or between their sons. -Akkalabeth" Nothing such about Pharazon and Miriel. Neither is it said that she ever opposed Pharazon's deeds. It seems after her marriage, she stopped being Faithful, even in heart. She repented only at the last moment: Quote:
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05-02-2006, 05:47 PM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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I think you are right that this is a definite possibility. There is also the fact that Pharazon could be very close to members of the Faithful. He and Amandil were apparently very good friends for a time.
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05-02-2006, 05:56 PM | #3 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Good point, CAB.
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05-02-2006, 06:01 PM | #4 | |
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05-02-2006, 06:39 PM | #5 |
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And Amandil still remained the King's counselor and even a friend after Pharazon "forced" Miriel into the marriage. I think it shows something.
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01-19-2007, 11:20 PM | #6 |
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I'm very new, and not entirely familiar with the thread, but I wished to express:
NO. Miriel was Tar-Palantir's daughter and was hardly an idiot. Pharazon, in my opinion, married her so that he could easily subdue her, lest she become a greater political threat. Of course, if that had been the full reason and he really DID hate her, he could easily have ordered Atanamir to marry her. So, there may have been a little lust on Ar-Pharazon's part (because we're all fairly sure that he was not above temptation) but never love.
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01-20-2007, 05:16 AM | #7 |
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interesting. because i somewhat agree with you. what if he married her to get to the throne, so that he could plan to attack Sauron, without having to go through whatever needed to go through.
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01-20-2007, 03:32 PM | #8 |
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I had thought about that as well, but I'm not sure precisely how they handled inheritance in Numenor. Does anyone know if marrying Miriel promoted Pharazon's status, or if he simply married her and then usurped the throne?
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05-13-2009, 01:08 PM | #9 | |
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I always thought that perhaps there was neither love (in the romantic sense) nor hatred (or even strong dislike) between them. I believe that their marriage was more likely an unemotional agreement - one that PharazĂŽn was able to persuade her into - a sort of 'marriage of convenience'. At this time one would think that MĂ*riel had a lot on her mind and was distraught, and as such would be in a position psychologically to be vulnerable to persuasion - especially if she was led to believe somehow that it was the right thing to do and that the outcome might benefit her country. So as to whether they "loved" one another in the way that most married couples do - I don't think so. I think it was more like a business partnership. I can imagine them living far from one another even within the palace complex of Armenelos, and MĂ*riel probably keeping to herself most of the time, while PharazĂŽn was off doing his thing. I imagine that MĂ*riel was simply resigned to it as her fate and the way things had to be.
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05-13-2009, 03:54 PM | #10 | |
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Ahh... what an old thread - My OP had been written before I read HOME 12 "Peoples of ME".
Actually I was right. There was quite an interesting love story between Pharazon and Miriel, unfortunately not included in the Silm. It had much more depth than the trite tale of forced marriage. As I now have HOME 12, I will post the relevant paragraph of the new story: Quote:
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05-13-2009, 04:01 PM | #11 |
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I think the concept of Miriel marrying Ar-Pharazon willingly is present, but as Tolkien's first vision. Later he leans over to the concept of her being forced both in marriage and in resigning her rightful rulership, but it would seem he did not have the time to re-write all traces of this first concept.
I would agree that in Tolkien's first vision, Miriel did indeed love Ar-Pharazon. None -or precious few- of the Ruling Queens of NĂșmenor showed much interest in actually ruling. Miriel seems likewise, and it would appear she had no problem with Ar-Pharazon ruling in her stead. I'm pretty sure Ar-Pharazon was a dashing man, capable of being charming when he needed to. Very likely not a bad catch at all. At least he didn't go gallavanting on the seven seas quite that often. (I'm looking at you here, Aldarion...) But whether Ar-Pharazon actually loved Miriel in return remains the question. He was a very ambitious man, I would hazard the guess he was more interested in the position a marriage with Miriel provided, than her, although I'm sure he considered her a nice perk to effective Kingship. Then again, if he did love her, it would make a nicely added depth to a character that otherwise can turn stereotypical pretty fast. I think it shows more that the Faithful like Amandil had to thread very, very carefully, in a land with a vast majority of 'King's men'.
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05-13-2009, 05:04 PM | #12 | |
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Oh, wow!! Thank you Gordis for sharing that bit. Interesting indeed.
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05-14-2009, 03:25 AM | #13 | ||||||
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In general in his last years Tolkien indeed had a tendency to make his good guys whiter and fluffier (take for instance the sugar-coated version of Galadriel and her precious Teleporno), and the bad guys darker and eviler. So who knows? I much prefer the forbidden love story for the reasons given above. Quote:
1.Ancalimë the horrible shrew, who would have murdered for the Scepter 2.Telperien (of whom I always think as a version of Elizabeth I of England) who deprived her brother of the Scepter and ruled till the last year of her life 3.Vanimeldë, who loved only music and dancing and happily let her husband rule in her stead. Miriel may indeed have been similar to Vanimeldë in character . Quote:
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05-14-2009, 06:06 PM | #14 | |||||
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One could put forth the hypothesis that maybe she didn't really know what went on in NĂșmenor behind her back. Suppose she trusted her husband to do the right thing, and kept to her own interests that didn't lead her into much contact with her subjects. And that maybe at the last moment, when she saw NĂșmenor crumbling under her feet that she realised that Ar-Pharazon had kept her in the dark and that things weren't quite that well. This is not an hypothesis I believe, but there is as little definite information on what Miriel really thought than there is on Ar-Pharazon. Quote:
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05-28-2009, 02:12 PM | #15 | |
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It might make a nice hypothetical story think on what may have happened had she picked Amandil's brother instead, and told PharazĂŽn where to go. ETA - Does anyone here think she may have regretted her choice in the end?
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05-28-2009, 02:22 PM | #16 | |
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Remember as well - no children recorded. I don't know if he 'took her' once, as a formality, or if that didn't even happen.
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05-28-2009, 02:51 PM | #17 | ||
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If she had chosen him, though, it's possible that he really pulled the wool over her eyes at first, to make himself desirable to her. Maybe she did start out loving him, but the fact that there were no children could indicate that she fell out of love with him rather early on. Maybe once she found out what kind of a jerk he really was, she just couldn't love him anymore. Of course though, by this time, it was already too late. So maybe both possibilities are true...
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" ...But the Exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, AkallabĂȘth the Downfallen, AtalantĂ« in the Eldarin tongue." "Ye who believe in affection that hopes, and endures, and is patient, Ye who believe in the beauty and strength of woman's devotion, List to the mournful tradition still sung by the pines of the forest ... " ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Evangeline |
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05-28-2009, 04:41 PM | #18 |
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The absence of children has a lot more to do with Miriel's age, IMO. She was old for that. Miriel, born in 3117, when marrying Pharazon, in 3255, was already 138 years old!
Tar Palantir lived to 220, Gimilkhad, Pharazon's father, lived to 199. The last seven kings of numenor ALL had children well before they turned 100! And we are speaking of males here, for females the age would be even lower. See here:Age of the Kings at the time when their Heir was born |
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