09-12-2004, 04:36 AM | #1 |
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Aragorn, Denethor, Theoden!?
I was wondering after reading through old threads on this site about Aragorns past. As it goes Aragorn traveled through Rohan and Gondor in his youth under the guise of Thorongil. It is even said somewhere that Denethor was, or seemed to be jealous of Throngil for his favor with his father Ecthelion. My question is; Do Theoden or Denethor reqognize aragorn as the man from their youth? Do they see him and remember him as Throngil? It doesn't seem that in the books they remember him. They need to be introduced to him again within The Lord of the Rings. Well, maybe just Theoden, I don't think Aragorn met with Denethor again. So what do you think? Would they have realized and remembered? Did they!?
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen Last edited by Halbarad of the Dunedain : 09-12-2004 at 04:37 AM. |
09-12-2004, 06:45 AM | #2 |
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Aragorn went to Rohan and ondor in disguise so I doubt that Theoden would have remembered him.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 06:53 AM | #3 |
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Does it say disguise? I don't think thered would have been much point to it? No one knew his face before that so they have nothing to compare a secretive form to.
Ecthalion: Why are you wearing that silly Disguise Throngil!? Throngil: Because sire, i didnt want you to discover that I am... *Aragorn removes his plastic classes and fake nose to reveal* Throngil: That I am Aragorn! Ecthalion: Thats nice and all but, Who the H3ll is Aragorn!? So he disguised his name because he knew it would be important in his future but he didnt disguise his face, I don't think. It doesn't seem plausible since he was very close with Ecthelion, Denethors father and Thengel, Theodens father. Not to mention Aragorn would not look much different since he ages slower than most humans on Middle-Earth. *had to change Thingol to Thengel... it's 4:01 in the morning here and im trying to post in at least 20 threads right now *
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"Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen Last edited by Halbarad of the Dunedain : 09-12-2004 at 07:02 AM. |
09-12-2004, 06:56 AM | #4 |
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Theoden's father is Thengel, Thingol was father of Luthien. Aragorn would have looked different. Think about how much time he spent in the wild.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-12-2004, 05:15 PM | #5 |
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Aragorn did not return to Gondor until after Denethor's death, but there seems little doubt that D. knew who A. was. His words about the "wild ranger from the north to supplant me" suggest to me that he was keeping up with Aragorn, possibly through the Palantir.
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09-13-2004, 04:03 AM | #6 | ||
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From Appendix A....
Quote:
Quote:
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09-13-2004, 11:29 AM | #7 | |
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Quote:
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-13-2004, 01:54 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-13-2004, 01:56 PM | #9 |
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Well Aragorn would not have conversed with Denethor through the Palantir.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-13-2004, 01:59 PM | #10 |
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No. My point is that I believe that Denethor was spying on Aragorn out of jealousy, using his PalantÃ*r since before the War of the Ring.
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09-13-2004, 02:02 PM | #11 |
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How? Aragorn only got the Palantir after Pippin looked into it.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-13-2004, 03:06 PM | #12 | |
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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09-14-2004, 02:18 AM | #13 |
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Other rulers didn't use the Palantir before Denenthor and he only used it after Boromir died (possibly just before).
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-14-2004, 02:24 AM | #14 |
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I don't think that is accurate Telcontar. I think I remember it stating that Denethor began using the Palantir not after Boromir's death but after his wifes death. Im not entirely sure if that is true, I just think I remember reading it somewhere. If this is true though it means Denethor was using it for a very long time, twenty to thirty years or so. Also it must be stated that when Denethor first looked into the palantir he was strong in mind and did not succumb to the will of Sauron. Even in his end Denethor really rejected Sauronquite well, it was his sorrow that made him loose all hope. Knowing this it would seem more likely that Denethor used the palantir before the loss of Boromir in this way it can be shown that Denethor was slowely cracked by the will of Sauron, using his sons death to crack him.
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09-14-2004, 10:29 AM | #15 |
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Also, as to the use of the Palantir by any of Elendil's successors or their stewards, we have very little information, but they must have been used frequently before the fall of Minas Morgul.
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09-14-2004, 10:33 AM | #16 | |
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Quote:
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09-15-2004, 12:50 PM | #17 | ||
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I found some passages relevant to this discussion.
Note 1 (an Author’s note) to ‘The PalantÃ*ri’ in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth tells us: Quote:
Quote:
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09-15-2004, 12:55 PM | #18 |
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Where is the second one from?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-15-2004, 02:00 PM | #19 |
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That is from Unfinished Tales, "The PalantÃ*ri"; page 407 in my (hardbacked) edition.
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09-16-2004, 01:34 AM | #20 |
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Thank you Attalus, that is the exact quote I was reffering to!
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