11-20-2002, 12:22 AM | #1 | |
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?
Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?
From the Published Silmarillion: Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 11-20-2002 at 12:29 AM. |
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11-20-2002, 12:53 AM | #2 |
Head Hollara
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 751
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But not all felt that way, I'll point out. I think of it very much like Noah and the ark, because one could say similar things... "why save only two of each animal? The rest, which are many will perish in the flood. They're not to blame." And the answer, of course, is: there is no answer. What happened, happened, I suppose.
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11-20-2002, 01:45 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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You're asking about Silmarillion predestination basically, correct? If so, there is a thread already devoted to discussing this topic, called "Ilúvatar created Melkor evil?"
I don't think they were predestined to be destroyed, because they had free choice. And they chose the path of evil, and as a consequence were punished for their sin. Are you asking about predestination, or not? |
11-20-2002, 02:22 AM | #4 |
Bard of Mangled Songs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila
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Perhaps a lot of side-switching went on within the Numenorian people and those that decided to keep faith with the Valar were spared and came to be with those who ruled western middle-earth.
BTW, aren't there Black Numenorians who also made it to M-E? I think 3 of their kings became Nazgul. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I only got this from the Tolkien Illustrated Enyclopedia.
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Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert Accio, Ash Nazg! Elennuru s?*la lúmenn' omentielvo (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... |
11-20-2002, 11:17 AM | #5 | |
Head Hollara
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Texas
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Quote:
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"People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. |
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11-20-2002, 02:51 PM | #6 | ||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
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Quote:
Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-20-2002, 03:03 PM | #7 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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I don't think that the numenoreans suffered from anything that wasn't common to man. almost everybody fears death, and only a few enlightened souls ever willingly give up their lives. The numenoreans simply fell back from the wisdom they had achieved to the foolishness of the shadow-men.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
11-20-2002, 04:33 PM | #8 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 11-20-2002 at 04:35 PM. |
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12-12-2002, 08:46 PM | #9 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 222
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Well, they had everything they could possibly want. The only thing they are lacking is immortality. And if Elros had just chosen to be immortal, they would have it.
Maybe the Númenóreans had it too good.
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a violinist... |
12-12-2002, 08:59 PM | #10 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-12-2002, 09:06 PM | #11 | |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
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Quote:
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12-12-2002, 09:13 PM | #12 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
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Since reading in HoME about mens downfall (to Melkor) myth of their immortality being taken from them or their mortal lifetime shortened, with Finrod then surmising the the later may have actually occured, I have begun to supect that the Westernesse longevity was not so much as a new gift (particularly since the Valar seem limited in their ability to make fundemental changes in such) but a RESTORATION of mans original lifespan which had been decreased in the past when they worshiped Melkor.
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12-12-2002, 09:18 PM | #13 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-12-2002, 09:23 PM | #14 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
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In some part of HoME JRRT worked on the idea that Elven and Human boied are same at conception or birth, and that the physical differences (like lifetime) between them are made by the differences in the elvish and human spirits melded to them. He goes on to say that it are very hard to distinquish between Elven and Human infants and toddlers, but that the diferences become more visable as the grow up. This would explain the easy fertility in the mixed couples; the GENEs are the same species, but the spirit soul is different. This leads me into to a theory of the fading lifetime of the Westernesse, that as their spirits become more corrupt and oriented to Morgoth, with debased spirits, the more debased their physical body becomes.
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12-13-2002, 01:07 PM | #15 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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12-13-2002, 01:19 PM | #16 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-13-2002, 03:30 PM | #17 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Quote:
[/end ramble]
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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12-13-2002, 03:34 PM | #18 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-13-2002, 04:05 PM | #19 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
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Do I get a pat on the head with that?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
12-13-2002, 04:09 PM | #20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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