02-20-2005, 01:20 PM | #1 | ||
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The Environment
Russia has signed the Kyoto accord, thereby making it International Law. The concept of international law seems a bit sketchy at the moment, but at least those involved with this accord are making some sort of attempt at sustainable environmental policies, to varying degrees. (Frankly I'm not terribly impressed with Canada at the moment, but we do a decent job, and maybe this new initiative will spur us on to actually trying to acheive the goals outlined in the accord. I have hope.)
However, I can't imagine countries who didn't sign the accord saying "Oh, you guys all agreed we should do this, okay then." I mean, the non-signing countries don't agree with the Kyoto accord, or they obviously would have signed it. Here are articles relevant to Canada's involvement with the accord: link. Canada has signed, although as I mentioned above, we haven't done much about it yet. I'd like to think that we signed the accord with the intent of doing something, but never really got around to it. I hope that now that it's international law (whatever that realistically means) we will be inspired to do something, and set an example with the rest of the world. One incentive I've heard for good environmental policies and practices is economic gains. What if you could "trade" an "environmental credit" with other nations? Firstly, what is an environmental credit? It would take a lot of effort to first determine a scientifically sensible and practical definition for this, and second, to agree on said definition. I suspect that the countries deciding this thing would tip the balance in their favour (either on purpose or not). If Russia or Canada were deciding, we might say an environmental credit is equal to one hectare of untouched boreal forest. Naturally, everyone else would say no way Jose! This also poses another problem. Countries lucky enough to have a large expanse of forest within their borders will gain yet another advantage over countries with less forest. There are also many other issues with practicality and implementation. However, we need some practical method of rewarding countries for sustainable environmental practices. Just because something works well and is fair within the constraints of a capitalist economy does not mean it's good for the world in the long run. Ocean fisheries are perhaps one of the best environmental examples. In North America, Canada and the United States have a great potential to set an example for the world as well as significantly impact current environmental problems. Instead, we continue to exploit the resources of developping nations, use too much chemical fertilizers, and devote far too many resources to automobiles. How does everyone feel about the current environmental policies of their respective countries? The fact that currently, human life on this planet is not sustainable does not seem to bother people as much as it should. I think the onus is on "developped" nations to start improving the global environment, as we have partly acheived this status with the resources of "developping" nations. Thoughts?
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02-20-2005, 02:17 PM | #2 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Kyotot treaty has no basis in international law whatsoever. It is a treaty only among the countries who signed and even they don't think they can fulfill their obligations in it - it's one of the reasons Clinton never sent it onto Congress for approval and let Bush take the fall for killing it. Kyoto treaty is pure nonsense and waste of time.
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02-20-2005, 08:07 PM | #3 | ||
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Thanks for your input JD.
However, I disagree. Canada's goal is to bring "greenhouse gas" emissions to 6% below our 1990 levels. This would take money, government support, and effort, but it is not impossible. The Kyoto accord isn't perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. If we (everyone) actually got behind some of the environmental policies we talk about, we really could make a difference! Making a half-assed attempt and then saying it doesn't work just doesn't cut it. Like a paper with a looming deadline, this is only going to get worse the longer we ignore it. If Kyoto is a waste of time, what do you propose instead? I strongly feel that we have to start doing something. It doesn't have to be Kyoto, but it's about time that nations start to make an attempt to curb pollution and misuse of resources.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-20-2005, 08:27 PM | #4 |
Quasi Evil
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Agreed. That was the problem with our reaction to the treaty. We didnt like the apparent impact it would have on us and we took our ball and went home and didnt bother to say "no but...". Pretty poor way to handle it if you ask me. If you are the most powerful and biggest resource eating country in the world you certainly have a place to say hey i dont like that but why dont we try this and adjust that.
Now that the treaty is in effect (as flawed as it may be) we now are in danger of losing the pole position for influencing and dealing with how this and other environmental agreements develop and operate around the world. I dont really see a problem with the concept of a market run environmental policy where the right to polute (essentially) can be purchased if a country thinks that too much immediate restriction would be bad for the health of its own economy. Frankly I think in another 20 or 30 years we will be trading "polution futures" (for lack of a better term) as fast and as commonly as we trade pork futures now or any big time commodity. And thats capitalism 101 right there. Hard for a capitalist country to be wholly against that.
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02-20-2005, 08:32 PM | #5 | ||
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Interesting idea IRex. Difficult as it may be to impliment, I like the concept of paying to pollute. It is already possible to do this through taxes. We could stop subsidizing gasoline and (though this is more complex) chemical fertilizers.
We could also have an extra "packaging" tax on products that either use ridiculous extra amounts of packaging like Jello cups, for example, or have packaging that can't be recycled (or is difficult to recycle). This begins to deal with one problem (landfills) but what about the use of fossil fuels and other resources like wood and other plant material, animals (domestic and wild, like fish) etc. ?
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02-20-2005, 11:28 PM | #6 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
As for the Kyotot treaty - I think it is crap - it doesn't include the major polluters (such as China and India) and it would have put most of the burden on the US. Everyone argues about how much energy the US uses - but they refuse to look at how much we produce in products and so forth. We have made strides to reduce pollution through the years and the states have taken additional action. Varuious states are even in discussions on an international lever. I've posted about that several times. it seems like you have not read it - otherwise you wouldn't be saying that the US would be cut out of selling "pollution credits". When people start cheating on Kyoto - then you will see how useless it was. The signers don't even think it can be followed or do they even think it can be met. It's useless piece of paper becuase it was watered down to appease China, the Middle East and India. After reading Nurv's response - i see she didn't read anything i posted regarding "energy credits" either. They already exist.
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02-20-2005, 11:45 PM | #7 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Here is the article I posted from the other thread...
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Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management There it is AGAIN about carbon/energy trading. [edit]Another thing is that people - personal people - can take action themselves - like buying energy efficient lightbulbs and buying energy from utility companies Green Mountain like I do.
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02-21-2005, 12:14 AM | #8 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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New Jersey aslo belongs to the Mid-Atlantic Energy Coalition which includes Virgina, West Virgiania, Maryland, DC, Delaware, Maryland and Pennsylvania.
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02-21-2005, 07:44 AM | #9 | ||
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One quick question - where did you post energy credits? I didn't see that before my last post.
Will read after class! *flees*
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02-21-2005, 08:48 AM | #10 |
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Quick reply: India emits a fraction of the CO2 compared with developed countries such as the US or Western Europe. So it's a feeble excuse to bail out of this global problem because India and China are not on board.
But there's a more general point about economics here. Economists use a technique called discounting when they weight up the benefits of an investment. Basically, a gain you get in the future is worth less than a gain now. Same with costs. The convention is that you discount future costs or benefits by 6% per year. So $100 gained in 20 years is worth about $30 now. Therefore it's impossible to make cutting CO2 emissions (i.e. paying a large economic cost now for an uncertain benefit way in the future) look economically viable. |
02-21-2005, 11:47 AM | #11 | |
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02-21-2005, 12:04 PM | #12 |
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And I should have added... My REAL worry is that we will be marginalized and left behind with a limited voice from here on out. We really should be the loudest voice on this subject. Is it really concievable that a few states working quietly with much larger global groups can have the same kind of influence (as far as setting limits and such) that The United States of America would through the unified mouth of the president or at least the federal government?
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02-21-2005, 01:37 PM | #13 | |
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IR - what you say makes no sense. If they need the US to make Kyoto work - then not just joining something we disagree with gives us even more power. They will have to include us and take into consideration OUR concerns if they wish us to be a part of it - and if they want any success. If they don't they are bound to fail. Gaffer - India and China do produce more pollution for the amount of products they produce. You produce more products then you need more energy - simple as that. I also think that China produces the most pollution. They don't have to follow the terms - or have a restraint on businesses - which will only cause them to become the economic powerhouses - without having to pay the same price as the otehr countries. So I'm wondering - if you were a company - where would you move your manufacturing operations? Would you keep it in the US or Europe where you'd have to spend a fortune on energy controls - while competitors set up in china and india where they don't? Companies would either have to move - or they'd end up going under because they wouldn't be able to conpete.
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02-21-2005, 01:58 PM | #14 |
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India and China produce LESS pollution BOTH in absolute amounts AND per head of population. The planet doesn't care how many widgets you're making per tonne of CO2 emitted.
Businesses are relocating to India and China anyway because the labour cost is far less than in the developed world. (But, they're free to do that, right? I find it funny how Western capitalists are all for "free trade" except when it doesn't benefit them.) The implication here is that we should do nothing, because we will frighten companies off to places where pollution is not controlled. This is precisely the sort of blinkered, short-term thinking that will guarantee our demise. Of course, once India and China start developing further, then they will produce more pollution. How are we to persuade these countries to co-operate on climate change in the future if the US is not on board now? If you look at it from their point of view, we (West) have already benefitted from polluting the planet. And now we turn round and tell them they can't develop because we're turned the planet into a toilet. We really need to show leadership on this one if we're to have any hope at all. |
02-21-2005, 02:39 PM | #15 | ||||||
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-21-2005 at 02:44 PM. |
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02-21-2005, 02:58 PM | #16 |
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i would say it comes down to oil and big business, but i don't want an aguement
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02-21-2005, 03:11 PM | #17 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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If you are referring to hydrogen - maybe you should do some research on that. It's a fact. It causes more pollution to produce the hydrogen than it saves. Down the street from me though - is the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (which is actually in Plainsboro not in Princeton) - which is a leading expert and research institution in the development of fusion power. Aerial Photo of PPPL
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02-21-2005, 03:16 PM | #18 |
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i dont agree with nuclear power either, but that is my personal opinion
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02-21-2005, 03:28 PM | #19 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 02-21-2005 at 03:31 PM. |
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02-21-2005, 06:01 PM | #20 |
Quasi Evil
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But right now fusion is impractical when you factor in the set up costs. Are you suggesting that we reject cooperating with other countries on global environmental issues and instead wait until we get fusion to the point where its worth doing? Dont you think fusion (over the next 50 years) could be PART of HOW we work with other countries in developing alternative energies?
Also I dont think we should be using an either/or way of thinking. There are plenty of other energy sources in the world that are likely to help replace fossil fuels before fusion comes on line simply because they (direct solar, ocean temperature, etc) can be utilized practically for a much lower capital cost.
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