06-03-2004, 09:53 AM | #1 | |||||
Sapling
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Petty Dwarves - Melkor the DIRECT cause?
The Petty dwarves are said to have originated in the East, and were filled with hate of all other creatures. It is said they driven away because they were small, deformed and rebellious. I give some passages from the essay Quendi and Eldar (HoME 10) to show this point.
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1) Why would these be hateful to everyone? Also, why rebellious, or deformed? Hate of all things is a characteristic of orcs and evil people, not dwarves. 2) What does the "further east" in the first quote refer to? The Ered Luin, or much further? The wording suggest to me this was further than Ered Luin. One thing I consider is the fact that Dwarves woke after elves, yet Petty ones had reached and settled in Beleriand before the Eldar came there. I do not think they had too much time, if they did come from further east than the Ered Luin or even Misty Mountains, to have become hateful and deformed at their original dwellings. At least not through natural means? Now a look at another essay, one written several years later called Of Dwarves and Men (HoME 12). First, what did JRRT say now about the places of origin of the Dwarves? Quote:
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If these Petty dwarves are the ones who came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil, then I wonder: Does this mean that they had turned evil due to living in a a world where Melkor had tainted, or does this imply a more direct link betwen Melkor and the early Naugrim? Did he take some of them captive at a point, or come among them or send a servant among them and do evil directly to them? But the Petty dwarves did not hate eachother, and seem not to have been entirely without love. This is not characteristic of orcs, but could it be these Petty Dwarves were a kind of failed attempt at orcs? Dwarves proving more resistant to whatever process Melkor might have used with men and or Elves in making orcs?
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06-04-2004, 02:12 AM | #2 |
founder of the color blue
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Maybe they were just hateful because the dwarves pushed them away. Generally people tend to hold a grudge against others when they arent included, why should dwarves be any different? They may have come under the shadow for a while, though, making them meaner, but I would say that for the most part, they are just angry little dwarves, too small to really make a difference in the world (it would seem), so they just get by how ever they can. That's my best guess
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06-19-2004, 12:36 AM | #3 | |
Elf Lord
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1) Why would these be hateful to everyone? Also, why rebellious, or deformed? Hate of all things is a characteristic of orcs and evil people, not dwarves.
Evidently it can be a trait of Dwarves. I would say they are so hateful because they have received so much hate. Some of these Petty Dwarves commited wicked crimes, and for these there are no good answers--is is the work of Morgoth? Well, all evil eventually goes back to him, so yes, but the Dwarves are none the less responsible for themselves, and one may find fault with them. But other Petty Dwarves were sadly cast away simply because they were deformed, or weak. I don't think that is their fault--rather the fault lies with the cruel Dwarrows who cast them out. 2) What does the "further east" in the first quote refer to? The Ered Luin, or much further? The wording suggest to me this was further than Ered Luin. I rather thought the Petty Dwarves came from all the other tribes. My take is this: There were Petty Dwarves to be found in all the other seven tribes, and the fact that some of the easternmost tribes served Morgoth is coincedental. I would also bring one's attention to The Hobbit, where it is said that some Dwarves had allied with the Goblins. I think it was the easternmost that did this. Quote:
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10-09-2004, 05:24 PM | #4 |
Elven Loremaster
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I think the question of why the Petty-Dwarves were hateful toward other creatures is answered, at least in part, by the fact that they started out as fugitives. Since they were outcasts from mainstream Dwarven society, they must not have been able to get along with the majority of Dwarves. If they were selfish, petty, and anti-social to begin with, then their communities would have been outlaw communities living in the wilderness.
Being subject to no law, they would have resented the encroachment of other Dwarves or any creatures who might in some way threaten their free existence. They might only imagine such intruders to be a threat. But once they began attacking the Elves, they initiated a pattern of reciprocation which would only reinforce their antisocial behaviors. |
10-12-2004, 04:38 AM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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But the Elves attacked the Petty Dwarves first, thinking them less than humane.
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10-12-2004, 12:20 PM | #6 | |
Elven Loremaster
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Quote:
It could be said, of course, that Melkor's poisoning of Arda (and all contained within it) might be partially responsible for the Petty-Dwarves. In a roundabout way, since Aule made the Dwarves partially in anticipation of the conflicts with Melkor's servants, Melkor had some influence in their design. He was partially responsible for their stubborn nature. |
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