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#1 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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What REALLY happens to Humans in Valinor?
I decided to put it into a separate thread as it has little to do with the nazgul...
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I always understood that in the Light of Aman the mortals would only DIE sooner. But, considering your quote, Rian, perhaps it meant that the Men in Aman would not die after all, that Valinor made bodies immortal, exactly like Sauron said? So they will not die, only grow weary and beg for death? Then, why in Ungoliant did the Wise send Frodo, Bilbo and Sam to Valinor, if such a fate awaited them? I thought they were meant to spend the short remainder of their lives in peace and then die... |
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#2 | ||
of the House of Bëor
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eastwards.
Posts: 979
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There is something I dont understand here, though. How can a hröa stay alive after the fëa leaves it? I thought that the departure of the fëa was the cause of death - the body wasn't able to go on living without it. I read through "Aman and Mortal Men", and found this - Quote:
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I'm good in bed - I can sleep for days |
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#3 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
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The only reason that I can think of is that Aule may have had something to do with it. IIRC, does it say somewhere, either the Sil or one of the HoME books that when dwarves die they have a special hall in Aule's house, simliar to that of the Elves with Mandos. Thoughts?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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#4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Perhaps a clue can be gleaned from Feanor's mother MÃ*riel...
Her body lay uncorrupted without its spirit for.. well maybe it's still there in the gardens of Lórien... How can you have corruption in the blessed land? (unless you happen to invite the avatar of corruption to tea...) Bilbo and Frodo et al probably wound up in similar circumstances, they at last grew weary and lay down, and their spirits left their bodies. The bodies didn't decay. That's not to say that the bodies went on walking around like zombies... or even breathing. They likely remained just as they left them at the moment of death. Were their spirit to return for some odd reason, it's possible they could indeed undego a "Resurrection"... which fits in with Tolkien's tie-ins with christianity... As for "..wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast..." You should remember your fairy tales. Isn't the enchanted sleep of ages a staple of fey? I would hazard a guess that mortals would succumb to the weariness from unadulterated bliss and fall into an "enchanted sleep", or you could call it death, since the spirit leaves the body.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#5 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Why bring poor hobbits to such an awful place? ![]() |
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#6 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
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Maybe that's why mortals aren't allowed in Aman.
It would get rather cluttered after a while, wouldn't it? Think about it...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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#7 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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I don’t think these two quotes are necessarily incompatible. The hroa and fea are two separate things. Probably most of the time they weary at the same rate, but in Valinor the fea desires release sooner than it normally would, while the body is still strong. The hroa wouldn’t have to be immortal, it could age at the same rate as it would in Middle Earth. I think the comparison to Miriel is a good one. Her body wasn’t tired but her spirit was. I can’t guess why her body would sleep while mortals’ wouldn’t though. I would guess that Tolkien was planning to use this as justification for the Valar fencing themselves from Middle Earth and the mortal races.
It is strange that the ringbearers and Gimli would be invited. Maybe Tol Eressea didn’t have the same effect on mortals because the Valar didn’t live there? Maybe Gimli was just a token Dwarf? |
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#8 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-18-2006 at 06:01 PM. |
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#9 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Just a quick post because I"m out of time -
two things - first, JRRT said that essay was very speculative, and second, he says in Letters (IIRC) that Frodo, etc. were only in Valinor for a short time for rest and healing, and then would continue on with their normal course of things, which would be to die.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#10 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Probably the Valar themselves had no idea what was about to happen to humans, so they started experimenting on hobbits.
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#11 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Blackheart, you are a gem. ![]() *Notes his idiotism in the previous post and corrects it*
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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