Sigh

[Lady Midnight]

It's very simple really. I'm just trying to start a project here that people who take part, being of a similarly creative inclination, will be able to put in a portfolio as an example of their work, therebye increasing there chances of obtaining work in this area.

All I wanted was to invite people to contribute to it.

I'm baffled as to why there is a problem here. People who I've asked about this, mods in fact from other boards, fail to see how there's a problem.

Anyone want to have a stab at explaining it?

[Ben]

Hi. I'm not the one who closed the threads, nor did I see them all in their original form. However, we have a policy here (which you agree to when you signed up) that prohibits the creation of topics for the sole purpose of advertising. This is a standard rule on message boards, and I'm sure you'll find it on most.

It's clutter. Do you like getting spam in your inbox? If allowed, General Messages would overflow with advertisments.

Here's the reason that theonering.net gives for banning ads on its board:

No image banners or advertisements for other sites are permitted. Why? Because people want to talk about Tolkien, not your site.

We do, however, allow advertisements in your personal signature, and in the designated "Advertising Thread" (there's a link in the rules). That way, people who are looking for the ads can easily find them, but other people can avoid the spam.

If a link pertains to the discussion you can post it, but just advertising your site is not permitted.

I'm sorry if I misconstrued the purpose of your threads - what were you trying to accomplish?

[Ben]

Oh, I see your message may have just been a redundant topic. To keep things running smoothly and efficiently, we recommend keeping discussion of the same topic in one thread. That way, people don't have to repeat themselves every time it pops up again. Comic Book Guy pointed you to another thread with a nearly identical focus.

[Lady Midnight]

I wasn't aware that I was advertising since this is completely not for profit , experience having taught me that the chances of ever doing more than covering the expenses incurred in publishing it are so remote that they barely exist.

No this is for the love of the art and to have something to point to and say 'We made that!'. The idea being that we do a good job of it and we can then show that as a sample of work to people we want to work for.

I'm not selling anything, I don't even care whether I make money from it. I'd just like to see how my earlier attempts at similar projects would've turned out had I the tech to do them properly. That's all. Like I said it's for the love of the art.

How can that be advertising?

BTW I wouldn't have minded if someone had said this beforeabout advertising before and cited it as a reason for my threads being locked. But it seems no-one could be bothered.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by bmilder
Oh, I see your message may have just been a redundant topic. To keep things running smoothly and efficiently, we recommend keeping discussion of the same topic in one thread. That way, people don't have to repeat themselves every time it pops up again. Comic Book Guy pointed you to another thread with a nearly identical focus.

It wasn't the same at all and I told Comic Book Guy this, requesting him nicely to unlock my thread. He didn't even do me the courtesy of replying.

The other thread is about aspiring novelists and is not asking people to contribute to anything but merely to discuss writing. Me, I'm asking for articles, artwork, poems, Reviews, short stories, filks and fanfic to be sent to me to be considered for publication. This is a different kind of writing involved, not to mention artwork and the thread is for a different purpose. I have in fact, taken advice from other mods I know on a different board on this. They compared the two threads and none of them consider them to be sufficiently similar to warrant locking mine.

One person suggested that comic Book Guy hadn't even read my thread.

[Ben]

Hmm. Well you end your post with this line:

Please PM me if you have anything.

If your thread is not about the writing process or the compositions, then how could it start any discussion? It seems to me that it serves its purpose just as well locked, since you're just inviting people to send you material.

I'm not selling anything, I don't even care whether I make money from it. I'd just like to see how my earlier attempts at similar projects would've turned out had I the tech to do them properly. That's all. Like I said it's for the love of the art.

How can that be advertising?

Advertising in the "real world" and advertising on message boards is totally different. Usually, the intent is not to make money, but to lure users from one board/site to another board/site. I'm sure you receive a lot of unsolicited messages via email, and you're probably only interested in a tiny percentage of the messages, if you open them at all. Some people here might be interested in your fanzine, but others would not. If everyone kept posting about their site/board/fanzine, the board would become a cluttered free-for-all.

BTW I wouldn't have minded if someone had said this beforeabout advertising before and cited it as a reason for my threads being locked. But it seems no-one could be bothered.

Well presumably everyone's read the rules, which you have to agree to in order to sign up. The rules state:

Advertising other sites is not allowed either, except for in one designated thread. If it pertains to the discussion, you can post a link; we just don't want you to start a thread merely to advertise your site, since this clutters up the board.

Apparently Comic Book Guy felt that you had a redundant thread instead. I know he's a bit padlock-happy, but perhaps otherwise it would've been closed for advertising.

I really don't know. This is kind of a gray area. Your post seems innocuous enough, but it could open the flood gates for more serious spam. If you can think of some way in which it would provoke discussion, perhaps the decision will be re-evaluated.

[HOBBIT]

Or maybe take CBG's advice and post that same message here.

It is a very similar topic dealing with aspiring writers, which is what your topic seemed to deal with. They even talk about writing things together, similar to your idea. Post your message there and see the reactions.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by bmilder
Hmm. Well you end your post with this line:

Apparently Comic Book Guy felt that you had a redundant thread instead. I know he's a bit padlock-happy, but perhaps otherwise it would've been closed for advertising.

I really don't know. This is kind of a gray area. Your post seems innocuous enough, but it could open the flood gates for more serious spam. If you can think of some way in which it would provoke discussion, perhaps the decision will be re-evaluated.

People might've had questions about the exact nature of the material I was looking for, word length, deadlines, copyright. They could've discussed the best format to produce the fanzine in, whether it should be web based or traditional, and if the latter whether it would be more economical to photocopy or print it, how to distribute it, what the title might be. I could've outlined the problems I had last time and people could've suggested ways to improve it. We could've taked about design, page layout, the various merits of my DTP software. Need I go on?

We could've discussed all the above and more and that's aside from the actual writing itself.

The only reason why I asked for people to PM me is cos they're hardly going to want to post their contributions in the thread for me now are they? In the second thread I actually asked people to post if they had any questions such as the above listed items. The whole reason I started the second thread was so that people would get the opportunity to ask me anything they needed to know should they be thinking of sending me something.

As for the advertising question I think you'll find that the very nature of the term advertising involves someone making money. As previously stated I have no intention whatsoever of making any money out of this except that which I need to keep the thing going. It can only be classed as advertising in the same way that the charity I volunteer for advertises it's services. It's a community project, that's all.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Or maybe take CBG's advice and post that same message here.

It is a very similar topic dealing with aspiring writers, which is what your topic seemed to deal with. They even talk about writing things together, similar to your idea. Post your message there and see the reactions.

Ah but that would be spamming now wouldn't it? I have already posted this twice now.

Let's face it the only reason that was locked was because it mentioned writing like the other thread. If I'd asked for artwork that'd be different.

BTW I read the whole of that other thread twice, asked other people to read it too and I see no mention of any project remotely similar to mine.

[HOBBIT]

People might've had questions about the exact nature of the material I was looking for....

Thats what Private Messages are for, and you even include in your post to private message you if interested, which I am sure those interested will.

As for the advertising question I think you'll find that the very nature of the term advertising involves someone making money.

As bmilder has explained, advertising on the internet is different.
If I started a topic in which the sole purpose of the topic was to get people to go to my Harry Potter board, that would be advertising. Am I making any money off that? I wish . Is that advertising? yes.

Your topic was promoting something, which is advertising. Also, as bmilder has pointed out, your first post has not been edited. Its message has been put out. People who are interested will just PM you.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by HOBBIT

As bmilder has explained, advertising on the internet is different.
If I started a topic in which the sole purpose of the topic was to get people to go to my Harry Potter board, that would be advertising. Am I making any money off that? I wish . Is that advertising? yes.

Your topic was promoting something, which is advertising. Also, as bmilder has pointed out, your first post has not been edited. Its message has been put out. People who are interested will just PM you.

Maybe people will PM me but in a few days it will be buried under a load of new threads and there might be people who'd meant to reply or to PM me who'll have to go dig for it under a pile of threads.

It was not advertising. I was not promoting anything, merely requesting assistance with my project so I don't end up wearing myself out trying to write the whole thing myself like I had to last time. That's not the same thing at all. Promoting would be if I said 'Hey I have a fanzine. It's really good. Come check it out.'

Besides which none of this is addressing the issue of why I was threatenned with a 24 hr ban for trying to start a fanzine of all things! One of the mods from another board who I showed that to said it was unecessarily nasty.

Talk about cracking a nut with a sledgehammer!

Heck I know some Trolls who will literally roar with laughter at that one.

[Ben]

As for the advertising question I think you'll find that the very nature of the term advertising involves someone making money. As previously stated I have no intention whatsoever of making any money out of this except that which I need to keep the thing going. It can only be classed as advertising in the same way that the charity I volunteer for advertises it's services. It's a community project, that's all.

Dictionary.com definition of "advertisement":

A notice, such as a poster or a paid announcement in the print, broadcast, or electronic media, designed to attract public attention or patronage.

It doesn't have to involve someone making money. It's just something to notify people about something. Regardless of any real world connatations the word has, on the internet advertising is calling attention to your board/site/whatever. Spam isn't just processed pig either. We feel that advertising has its place, just not as an entire thread.

Was your thread an advertisement? That's another matter entirely. Under broad definitions, it would be. However, you're not just a "hit-and-run spammer," and people have helped out with projects in the past.

As far as I can tell, you weren't "threatened" for trying to start a fanzine. CBG issued the warning because he closed your other thread, and you seemed to ignore him and re-start it. I personally might not have handled it that way, but he did what he did.

You did the right thing in trying to contact him via PM. How long ago did you send the message? Some staff members have some semblance of a life , so a response might not be instantaneous. You should've given him a few days, and if you had no luck, tried another admin. An entire thread about this concern is not really necessary.

However, I do think that anyone interested would PM you anyway, and the thread would sink to the bottom by itself, unless you sent it to the top. Posting it once should be enough. Interested people would see it, or perhaps search for "fantasy fanzine." That's just the way things work. Entmoot isn't really for promoting people's pet projects.

The administration will investigate this issue further.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Frankly, I don't know what other boards and mods you are refering to that told you that what was going on here was wrong, but I can tell you this: as a moderator here and at other boards, I would never give a user the opinion that admins and mods of another board were wrong in their decisions to lock a thread, just because the user expressed their disapproval of the action taken. I can also tell you that to question the actions of any admin or mod in open forum, is usually considered unacceptable on most boards. So, I would say you are lucky.

[Lady Midnight]

bmidler firstly if as you say "other people have helped out with projects in the past" then this implies that advertising or not, it must be ok to ask for that help.

As for your comments about the thread whilst it might be possible to pin a very loose definition on advertising, spam it most definitely is not. I have already outlined the numerous things that could've been discussed on that thread had it remained open. Please do not make me repeat myself. That would be spam.

Secondly I refer you to this thread where my post was edited, the thread locked and I was threatened with a ban:

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=4708

I had in fact told Comic Book Guy that if the matter was not resolved to everyone's satisfaction I would have no choice but to start a new thread. He did not reply. FTR he was online for sometime after I PMed him (and e-mailed him too). In that time he did things such as reply to a newbie thread. There were no pressing RL matters that prevented him from replying. He just couldn't be bothered.

One question if my asking for help with a fanzine is somehow prohibited, how is my asking for help with my Psychology assignment allowed given that, applying your definition of advertising, the psychology thread also qualifies and on that thread there is even less room for a discussion on that thread than on the fanzine thread? Before you answer bear in mind that had I not started the Psychology thread I would be unable to complete my assignment since I don't actually know anyone within the ages of 8 and 18. I would therefore have failed my degree.

However, similarly, if I do not post about my fanzine then I can't publish one since to have to write everything myself is not only stupid but such hard work it'd be hazardous to my health. Is it as important a matter as my degree? Most would argue not. It is to me.

I just thought the other members of this board might be interested in knowing I was starting such a project. I B]STILL[/B] fail to see why that is a problem.

As for whether or not a whole thread about this is necessary I would beg to differ there. It would not have been necessary had I not been needlessly issued with a warning, something which has only served to escalate the problem. I tried to resolve this matter amicably. I was ignored.

On SlipstreamBBS we have a whole forum filled with threads such as this. The forum is called Questions Suggestions Feedback and exists to deal with situations like these. Because when a mod is in error, when a mod handles a situation badly, it is not just necessary but vital to call them on it.

However, all that aside, I greatly appreciate you looking into this matter for me. Now if I may make a suggestion: this situation can be resolved quite easily if Comic Book Guy apologises for handling things so very badly and perhaps I could have my notice as part of my sig. Alternatively if enough people wanted to discuss creative things such as this, why not allow an official thread every couple of months? Either way would get things done as far as I'm concerned.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Frankly, I don't know what other boards and mods you are refering to that told you that what was going on here was wrong, but I can tell you this: as a moderator here and at other boards, I would never give a user the opinion that admins and mods of another board were wrong in their decisions to lock a thread, just because the user expressed their disapproval of the action taken. I can also tell you that to question the actions of any admin or mod in open forum, is usually considered unacceptable on most boards. So, I would say you are lucky.

I asked mods from another BBS because I wanted a mod's perspective on this. Frankly they were shocked at the way this has been handled. It's not necessarily whether CBG was right to lock my thread that's in question here, the mods I asked about this and I all feel that, having locked my thread he should've at least been willing to discuss the matter when I asked him about it. FTR no-one saw more than the faintest similarity between my thread and the one CBG pointed out as being similar. Also I made a similar request on the BBS where these mods are from. Without any problems whatsoever.

As I mentioned to bmidler on the BBS I'm reffering to, and indeed on my own, we have QSF forums. There it is more than acceptable to question the decisions of both mods and Admin, although on my BBS no-one has ever had to and on the Slipstream things rarely actually ever get done.

Heck even the Troll's Board has a QSF forum or so I'm told!

Questioning mod's decisions is nowhere near as unheard of as you make out.

[emplynx]

If there is one thing I have learned at Entmoot, it is that the mods here keep the rules. I think that by keeping the rules they are reducing annoying-ness and making it a more pleasent board for all.
Sorry I'm not helping you, Lady Midnight but the mods here know what they are talking about and I think that 99% of the time they do what's best. I have argued with them in the past about threads, but I think they are great mods and what they say should go.

*steps down*

[Darth Tater]

Your first thread was not only redundant, it was an advertisement for something off site. You don't need to make a profit for the ad to be an ad on the net. That thread was closed. Then you reposted it! You break two rules and you decide to repost it! My god that's just stupid.

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by emplynx
If there is one thing I have learned at Entmoot, it is that the mods here keep the rules. I think that by keeping the rules they are reducing annoying-ness and making it a more pleasent board for all.
Sorry I'm not helping you, Lady Midnight but the mods here know what they are talking about and I think that 99% of the time they do what's best. I have argued with them in the past about threads, but I think they are great mods and what they say should go.

*steps down*

Great mods???????? My god some people complain about the Slipstream mods but this bunch make those look like ANGELS!!!!

Keeping the rules???? I asked for people to help with a fanzine for crying out loud!!! I haven't Trolled, I haven't flamed, I haven't offended anyone. Evenbmidler said that the post itself seemed harmless! If indeed I did break the rules a/ I did so unwittingly and b/ my infraction was so miniscule that the reaction of the mods to it is just laughable.

Making a pleasant board for all?????? Just who exactly do you mean by 'all'? There is a reason why I rarely post here y'know. It's because of the heavy handed attitude of some of the mods here.. Ok an attitude like that would be understandable if this Board was over-run with Trolls but it isn't and I just think it's somewhat akin to using nukes to quell a playground fight.

Now let's take a step back here and consider a few points. I have been posting on BBSes for over a year now. Some of them have become real communities, sort of like a home for my online self as it were. Now as with any communities, online or otherwise, each board will have it's own customs. Most boards have pretty much the same Policy but different ways of applying it. For example if I were to post about fanzines on a thread about writing novels this would be seen on other boards as taking the tread somewhat off topic and I'd be warned for spamming and/or thread hijacking.

Which is why I didn't do it here!

I'm just used to different customs that's all. A lot of hassle could be spared if people could remember that and behave accordingly. Consider me as you would a foreigner.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
I have argued with them in the past about threads, but I think they are great mods and what they say should go.

Emp, you're such a suck-up. What did they promise you? Wine, women, and a planet?

[Lady Midnight]

Originally posted by Darth Tater
Your first thread was not only redundant, it was an advertisement for something off site. You don't need to make a profit for the ad to be an ad on the net. That thread was closed. Then you reposted it! You break two rules and you decide to repost it! My god that's just stupid.

That's all well and good for you to say that NOW but at the time of posting either thread I wasn't aware that I'd broken even ONE rule, never mind two. No-one bothered to point that out to me, not even when I PMed CBG and politely enquired why my thread was locked. I remained baffled. Which is why I posted a second time. Yes I was aware it might be seen as spamming but I genuinely believed that I'd had a right to start the first thread and, because no-one explained to me just why exactly I didn't, was really put out by the thread being locked and felt that, since my thread .IS NOT the same as the other thread CBG mentioned, he was in error and I therefore had a right to post again . Then I got threatenned with a ban and I felt that this was a very extreme way of dealing with the situation. I'd STILL recieved no explanation. So I started this thread.

Here it is again to sum up:

a/ I had no idea that my thread would be considered redundant since I was unaware that the other thread on the topic of writing even existed. In any case I STILL don't think the two threads are similar enough to make my thread redundant. So no rule broken there.

b/ As for advertising, ok maybe you COULD apply that term, albeit somewhat loosely. Then again you could apply it to my Psychology thread as well, except that I didn't exactly have a choice when it came to that one, so no. Anyway there was a slight infraction here I'll give you that but I was still unaware that I'd broken any rule because I was not aware that it could be considered advertising.


c/ So when I re-posted my thread I did so believing that since as far as I was aware I had NOT broken any rules in posting it the first time, I had every right to do so, irrospective of whether it was spamming or not. Ordinarily that would be breaking a rule but under the circumstances I felt I was justified.

d/ If I had posted on the other thread as CBG and HOBBIT have suggested I'd still be repeating myself and would therefore still be spamming.

This whole thing could've been avoided if someone had merely done me the courtesy of PMing me about it, or indeed replying to my PM.