05-30-2006, 03:33 PM | #1 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Did Vardamir Nolimon have a choice?
While I was recently reading the Sil, I read the part where it said that Elrond and his children had the choice of whether they were counted among the elves or among Mortal Men. This lead me to wonder whether or not Elros' child/ren had a choice aswell, or whether, as they were already considered as mortal men, they did not.
Thoughts?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-30-2006, 03:53 PM | #2 |
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i think because they are men, they don't get a choice because it goes against their nature.
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05-30-2006, 04:11 PM | #3 |
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What do you mean by 'their nature'? The fact that they are mortal? But elves are immortal. Would becoming mortal not be going against 'their nature'?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-30-2006, 04:17 PM | #4 |
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Yes. Luthein also had that choice.
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05-30-2006, 04:38 PM | #5 |
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I don't think that can be counted as a valid example as Luthien was an exception to most rules concerning death.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-30-2006, 04:49 PM | #6 |
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I am pretty sure none of Elros's descendants has ever had the choice. Choosing mortality, Elros made the choice for all his line.
But I wonder, did Dior have this choice? Or did he die so young that he was not offered it yet? |
05-30-2006, 04:55 PM | #7 |
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I think that Dior was given the choice and told immortality. Remeber that Aragorn marrying Arwen was accounted to be the third Union of the Eldar and Edain. Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragorn and Arwen. But why would Dior get the choice but Vardamir not? Both of his parents were mortal as were Vardamirs and his grandparents immortal, as were Vardamirs.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-30-2006, 05:54 PM | #8 | ||
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Quote:
And Dior marrying Nimloth could be overlooked as well. By the way, you are right, when Dior was born both his parents were mortal. So, I would say, he was also mortal, only he was too young to find that out... As for the Choice, it was given to Earendil and Elwings line later, when they brought a Silmaril to Valinor: Quote:
Therefore I think Dior had no choice, neither did Elros's children, sons of mortals. Elrond's line had the choice, as they were still half-elven, though they potentially had the life of Elves. Discriminative, eh? |
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05-31-2006, 11:53 AM | #9 | |||
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Quote:
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Furthermore, if we analyse this quote from of the Voyage of Earendil and the war of wrath: Quote:
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06-01-2006, 08:09 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
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06-01-2006, 12:16 PM | #11 | |
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Oh well :
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06-01-2006, 12:25 PM | #12 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Of course Dior was half-elven, by blood.
And the sons of Mithrellas and Angelimar were half-elven. But this says nothing about his ultimate fate after death. Dior's death predated the decision of Manwe re: Earendil and Elwing. I still don't think he was given a choice, just a Gift of Eru and off he went... |
06-01-2006, 01:30 PM | #13 | |
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p.s am reading later HoME books now for only the second time.
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06-01-2006, 04:02 PM | #14 | |
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06-01-2006, 04:17 PM | #15 |
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oh yeh, forgot about that bit.
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06-13-2006, 10:19 PM | #16 |
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The choice was given to the half elvin. It seemed to me Elros had already chosen to be accounted among men, therefore unless his Queen was an elf, his children would be human. Elronds children were peredhel (half elvin) and they would have been even if there mother was not an elf because Elrond chose to be Elvin, though he still had the genes of man; therefore the choice would come before them one day as well.
It would seem to me that Elros no longer has the genes of elves once his choice was made, so why did Elrond still have the genes of men. OOOHhhhh!!! Or could it be that if Elron's wife was human, his children would be human as well, even though he would still be immortal.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Last edited by The Telcontarion : 06-14-2006 at 10:43 AM. |
06-30-2006, 06:52 PM | #17 |
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I don't remember it anywhere written that death was forbidden to the elves, although it was not usual that they would die, and so part from their kindred.
For the men it is explicitly said by manwe, that it is not for him to withdraw the gift of Iluvatar from men. For the elves there is no corresponding saying (as far as I remember, please anybody correct me if I'm wrong). So the children of Elrond could still choose to be counted among men and die. So, if my reasoning is correct, it is only with those deemed men that they need to be given the choice.
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06-30-2006, 07:39 PM | #18 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Quote:
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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07-29-2006, 08:24 AM | #19 |
Hobbit
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Telcontar...
I am impressed. This is good stuff. The best I've read so far. |
07-29-2006, 02:37 PM | #20 | |
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Gordis: I know this was written a long time ago, but I just wanted to point out that Mithrellas was a Silvan Elf, not an Elda; as far as I know, the number was to apply to the marriages of Eldar and Edain, and I think I recall that it is written that there were more unions between Men and lesser Elves.
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