What is the fate of Balrogs?

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 09-17-2003, 08:19 PM

Where do the Maiar spirits go after their physical Balrog incarnation is destroyed. Do they share the same fate as Sauron, being relegated to a powerless spirit that drifts in the void? The thing is, Balrogs have not foolishly given the greater portion of their power to a piece of jewelry, so from everything I know, they should be able to "reincarnate" themselves.

I wonder why they were never able to fashion another physical body like Sauron did on more than one occasion? Could it be that they are just not as powerful a spirit as Sauron was?

Is it possible that they could return to Valinor and sue for pardon. Afterall, it was offered to Sauron after the last battle of the First Age.

Has anyone read anything about this? Or do you have any thoughts on it?

galadriel · 09-17-2003, 10:14 PM

I have absolutely no idea. I'm interested to hear other's thoughts on this.

Lefty Scaevola · 09-17-2003, 11:00 PM

To achieve their stupendous pysical combat power, and the falming body effect, they may have invested a lot more of their being into their phsycial form than other mair did when they made boides. Thus they may have suffered a greater and more crippling loss when their physical forms were destroyed, particularly veing without an ancher like the ring to pull them back.

Elf Girl · 09-18-2003, 08:17 AM

Doesn't it say in the Sil that they lost the power to incarnate in anything other than their 'true' incarnations when they turned to Sauron?

RohirrimGuy · 09-21-2003, 08:01 AM

I just thought they died and their Maiar spirit went to the Valar to be judged on whether to destroy it or give it another body.

Attalus · 09-21-2003, 12:16 PM

All of the Ainur had to have permission, presumably from Iluvatar, to reincarnate, once they became incarnate and killed. Witness what happened to Gandalf upon Zirak-Zigil. Those who rebelled, like Melkor, Sauron, the Balrogs, and Saruman, were refused. Remember the phantom that arose above Saruman's body? It looked toward the West, i.e., towards Aman, and a sudden gust of wind blew it away. Then, I guess, they were cast in the Abyss, to keep Melkor company. Much pleasure that would be.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-21-2003, 12:29 PM

Moving to the Middle-earth forum.

Findegil · 09-21-2003, 01:26 PM

The death of Gandalf upon Zirak-Zigil is no good guide to the fate of the Balrogs. Gandalf was no "normal" Maiar when he suffered that death. He was an Istari, that meant he was incarnated in a real physical form. I am not sure that the Balrogs were incarnated in the same way. The Balrog seemed at least to me able to change his physical form to his own liking. When he dived into the water down in that abysse of Moria Gandalf discriped the Balrog:

Quote:

... His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

and later we see the Balrog change his form again:[quote]... Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he brust into flame. ...[/qoute]

Respectfully
Findegil

Attalus · 09-21-2003, 02:42 PM

We addressed this on another Forum, and IIRC we concluded that Balrogs had to be incarnated, because they could be killed, which Sauron and Melkor could not. As for Durin's Bane's metamorphosis into a strangling snake of slime, that could just be another of his powers, not needed as long as the flame worked. BTW, I was reading Michael's essay on Balrogs t'other day, and was surprised at how he emphasised that the Balrog was only attacking Gandalf. It did not seem to give the rest of the Fellowship any notice at all, not even Frodo. Presumably it recognized a fellow Maia, of the opposite persuasion?

Cirdan · 09-22-2003, 06:26 PM

The Balrogs were also distorted and corrupted by Melkor and this most likely would include the diminuation of independent powers in favor of the malicious and violent powers (though still subservient). They became more beast-like and less capable of independent thought or action.

09-17-2003, 08:19 PM	#1
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	What is the fate of Balrogs? Where do the Maiar spirits go after their physical Balrog incarnation is destroyed. Do they share the same fate as Sauron, being relegated to a powerless spirit that drifts in the void? The thing is, Balrogs have not foolishly given the greater portion of their power to a piece of jewelry, so from everything I know, they should be able to "reincarnate" themselves. I wonder why they were never able to fashion another physical body like Sauron did on more than one occasion? Could it be that they are just not as powerful a spirit as Sauron was? Is it possible that they could return to Valinor and sue for pardon. Afterall, it was offered to Sauron after the last battle of the First Age. Has anyone read anything about this? Or do you have any thoughts on it? __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat!

09-17-2003, 10:14 PM	#2
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	I have absolutely no idea. I'm interested to hear other's thoughts on this. __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

09-18-2003, 08:17 AM	#4
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Doesn't it say in the Sil that they lost the power to incarnate in anything other than their 'true' incarnations when they turned to Sauron? __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

09-21-2003, 08:01 AM	#5
RohirrimGuy Sapling Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 12	UM... I just thought they died and their Maiar spirit went to the Valar to be judged on whether to destroy it or give it another body. __________________ "I return to you now, at the turn of the tide!" -Gandalf TTT "Red sun rises, blood has been spilled this night!" -Legolas Greenleaf TTT "If you want him, come and claim him!" -Arwen FOTR Jesus Freak! Bwaha!!

09-21-2003, 12:16 PM	#6
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	All of the Ainur had to have permission, presumably from Iluvatar, to reincarnate, once they became incarnate and killed. Witness what happened to Gandalf upon Zirak-Zigil. Those who rebelled, like Melkor, Sauron, the Balrogs, and Saruman, were refused. Remember the phantom that arose above Saruman's body? It looked toward the West, i.e., towards Aman, and a sudden gust of wind blew it away. Then, I guess, they were cast in the Abyss, to keep Melkor company. Much pleasure that would be. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

09-17-2003, 11:00 PM	#3
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	To achieve their stupendous pysical combat power, and the falming body effect, they may have invested a lot more of their being into their phsycial form than other mair did when they made boides. Thus they may have suffered a greater and more crippling loss when their physical forms were destroyed, particularly veing without an ancher like the ring to pull them back.

09-21-2003, 12:29 PM	#7
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Moving to the Middle-earth forum. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-21-2003, 02:42 PM	#9
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	We addressed this on another Forum, and IIRC we concluded that Balrogs had to be incarnated, because they could be killed, which Sauron and Melkor could not. As for Durin's Bane's metamorphosis into a strangling snake of slime, that could just be another of his powers, not needed as long as the flame worked. BTW, I was reading Michael's essay on Balrogs t'other day, and was surprised at how he emphasised that the Balrog was only attacking Gandalf. It did not seem to give the rest of the Fellowship any notice at all, not even Frodo. Presumably it recognized a fellow Maia, of the opposite persuasion? __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

09-22-2003, 06:26 PM	#10
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	The Balrogs were also distorted and corrupted by Melkor and this most likely would include the diminuation of independent powers in favor of the malicious and violent powers (though still subservient). They became more beast-like and less capable of independent thought or action. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
balrogs	den	Middle Earth	22	10-30-2003 08:10 PM
Balrogs: How large are they?	Gilrond	Middle Earth	36	10-15-2002 11:31 AM
Power of the Balrogs and Elven Kings	Capuken	The Silmarillion	39	10-17-2001 03:55 AM
Dragons vs Balrogs	easterlinge	The Silmarillion	61	05-28-2001 01:17 AM
The nature of Balrogs	Captain Stern	The Silmarillion	17	02-26-2001 10:01 AM