11-07-2003, 10:12 PM | #1 | ||
Elf Lord
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Free Will and Turin Turambar
1---I tried a search for this topic but I found nothing specific to the Curse of Morgoth on Turin and Nienor, so hopefully this topic isn't repetitive and is of interest.
2---If it interferes with or preempts the Silmarillion chapter project i imagine it could be shelved. But, barring that: _______________________________________________ The ability of curses to occasionally seem to negate free will in Middle-earth (particularly in the First Age) seem to be an anomaly in a basic theme of JRRT's in his legendarium. While the Curse of Mandos was retributive justice for the Noldor's, especially Feanor's, kinslaying, in the case of Hurin, and even more Turin, Morgoth's Curse seems to make supposedly free wills hapless and helpless. Is there a rationale for this? Paul H. Kocher, for one, in his 1980 book A Reader's Guide to The Silmarillion seems to have no answer. Quote:
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11-08-2003, 07:50 AM | #2 |
founder of the color blue
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thats a good question, one that I am probably not qualifyed to answer, but ill take a shot. It seems like lots of times, stuff like this happens, such as with tuor and his doom to go to gondolin. Albiet that was a good thing, that the Gods foresaw, but that doesnt mean that bad stuff cant be preplanned. Maybe it was just that Turin was very unlucky, and Morgoth foresaw this. Or maybe it was Turins fate to kill the worm, but in due time, and Iluvatar, rather than take Turins will away and stay his hand in some cases, he just let it flow. Morgoth might have some magic to curse people with, but Turin and everyone involved made some bad choices too, full of pride. I really dont think that doom had much to do with it, except that Turin knew that he was screwed from the get go, so he made his decisions based on that, and it led ultimately to ruin. Plus, it makes a good story, like a great greek tragedy.
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11-08-2003, 10:11 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Originally posted by Beor
" Plus, it makes a good story, like a great greek tragedy." ____________________________________________ Yes, I think you're probably right. I didn't want to make the post too long. But, given JRRT knew various mythologies, and in Humphrey Carpenter's Biography it discusses his fascination with Sigurd and the dragon, maybe he just liked the tale so much he decided to build T.T.'s tale around it and not worry too much about total consistency. Still, perhaps some theory could be imagined to make free will and curses consistent. For example, it has been obseved that the Nazgul fear of water can't really be explained (including by Tolkien in one of his Letters), but it seems to me one possible explanation is that it was a lingering effect of Ulmo, especially on great rivers like the Anduin and the Brandywine, that confused the Nazgul. Perhaps there is some similar rationale that could be postulated for curses in ME.
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11-08-2003, 10:28 AM | #4 | |||||
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The Doom of Mandos: Quote:
2. The wrath of the Valar was mainly against the House of Fëanor, and they had become already dispossesed because they had lost the kingship of the Ñoldor. This was before the kinslaying. No lack of free will either. 3. An elf who it's hröa is destroyed, should go to Mandos and then be rehoused. It's a natural thing for an elf. No lack of free will. 4. Those that remain in ME would fade, is a result of the nature of the Elves. They were not meant to remain in ME forever, Men were the ones who would inherit ME. That's the nature of them, not lack of free will. Curse of Morgoth upon Húrin Quote:
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There are plenty of examples in the Narn that shows that Túrin actions were the result of his pride. An pride is not lack of free will. He could have returned with Beleg to Doriath, he could have not removed his helmet when facing the Foalókë (Glaurung), but he did. I don't blame the curse, I blame the character, he was responsible for his actions. Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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11-08-2003, 10:59 AM | #5 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I agree that Turin was cursed with bad luck, but his doom was brought about by his bad temper and his pride, neither of which was in Morgoth's control. I suspect that Morgoth's foreknowledge was behind his (revolting) speech. He was angry, he foresaw bad things in store, so he said that in order to take the credit, if that is the word.
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11-08-2003, 11:01 AM | #6 | |
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I agree with Maedhros' observation in regard to Morwen. Morgoth did have the power to 'curse' a person's life in that he could ensure bad things happened. Yet we are free to choose how we react to what happens around us. Morgoth is not Eru. He does not have a perfect perception of what will happen in the future. He can only guess what affect his actions will have upon another. In most cases, he would guess correctly, but not in all. But as any power hungry egotistical dictator, he believes he is in control. Therefore it would not be out of character for him to not only brag about what he is going to do, but also what the final outcome of his plan will be. That is why I don't give too much authority to his proven false statement:
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The story of Job is another good example of the same kind of free will that is demonstrated in Tolkien's world. We have no control over what happens to us in this world, but we do have control over how we react. Last edited by Eladar : 11-08-2003 at 11:02 AM. |
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11-08-2003, 11:43 AM | #7 | |
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About the curse of Mandos: I see it not as a curse, but as a Doom and a Prophecy, the Prophecy of Mandos. It is what Mandos percieve what will happen to the Noldor if they continue with their rebelling. As Maedhros have already said, they were free to turn back and repent, but they chose not to.
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11-08-2003, 12:10 PM | #8 |
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Thanks. The above comments by all are quite helpful.
I suppose that's why one comes to the Silmarillion Forum for assistance from the Wise.
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11-11-2003, 01:28 AM | #9 | |
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What a fascinating observation Tuor of Gondolin! The first time I read about the House of Hurin it struck me as odd that these people could have their lives destroyed so easily. It didn't seem to fit the Middle Earth I was familiar with. But I never really took the time to fathom it out. I agree with Artanis that the Curse of Mandos is something wholly other than the Curse of Morgoth and Maedhros is correct in his arguments concerning the Mandos curse. There really is no single right answer when dealing with the metaphysical elements in play here (free will vs. destiny vs. free-agent intervention through curses etc.) . In the final analysis I think that you yourself have answered your own question and have logically solved the discrepencies:
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11-11-2003, 12:00 PM | #10 | |
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i've always seen the curses and prophecies by the valar (and melkor) as rememberances from the creation when eru laid the unfolding of arda in front of them...
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this does not mean that huor had no free will and was just a tool of ulmo... on the contrary, ulmo knew from watching the unfolding what free will choices huor would make and what parts he had to do to make sure they came about i think melkor's curses acted in much the same way... he would most likely have paid attention to the parts of arda's history concerning domination and sorrow and thus knew the part to play to bring about what he desired this also explains both sides lack of knowledge concerning one another... the valar would not have been part of the songs which led to the destruction of the trees and thus had no forewarning... the same can be said of melkor's ultimate defeat interesting, mandos seems to have played the middle ground, since he sees much of the future... one could surmise from this that he played a part, or was at least paying attention to both the songs of eru and those of melkor (moreso than any other valar at least) if you buy the above, you could almost make the argument that the ones lacking free will were the valar, since, unlike the common man or elf, they knew what their actions would lead to (for the most part) and still continued to follow them... i'd credit this to responsibility on the part of the valar and self-interest on the part of melkor |
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11-11-2003, 08:00 PM | #11 |
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Turin, more than any other character in the mythos, fits the archetype of a tragic hero. Morgoth's curse, IMO, has far less to do with the tribulations he faced than does Turin's tragic flaw. Unsurpisingly, (this is Tolkien, after all) Turin's flaw, quite simply, is pride. This pride, coupled with his temper, is ultimately responsible for the vast majority of his difficulties, beginning with the death of Saeros, continuing through his refusal of Thingol's pardon, his establishment and the eventual fall of the freeholding on Amon Rudh, the fall of Nargothrond, and even his ill-fated marriage.
Similarly, Nienor's refusal to return to Doriath, culminating in her battle of wills with Glaurung, set her upon a similar path.
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11-11-2003, 08:06 PM | #12 |
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I agree with you Bacchus, those themes have been central to Western literature since the Greeks.
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11-12-2003, 12:32 AM | #13 |
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Darn it, it is too late, and I can't think. I'll post tomorrow. Good posts, though.
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11-12-2003, 02:18 AM | #14 |
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A strong case is made in posts above for the primacy of Turin's pride/arrogance over Morgoth's Curse in "blame" for his misfortunes. Indeed, the parallel fates of (ahem) Tuor and Turin illustrate the role of pride in their fates. Both had very tough childhoods, lost their parents, fought against oppressive enemies, and were raised and instructed by elves. But Tuor was more open to instruction and advice (would Turin have been daunted, swayed in his course even by Ulmo?). And there is that poignant moment when Tuor and Voronwe see the Blacksword heading north (not knowing who he is) as they head for Gondolin.
There would seem to be no inherent reason why a Turin/Finduilas union could not have matched that of Tuor/Idril Celebrindal's descendants in their crucial, positive effect on the history of Middle-earth, save for the "fatal flaw" in Turin's makeup. So was it fate, a curse, a fatal character flaw, choices of free wills that led to the T. T. tragedy? Hmm. seems like the tale of Turin Turambar is even more complex then I'd thought. Perhaps one reason the tale resounds with readers is a theme which echoes in peoples lives: lost opportunities, what if I'd done that differently, etc. "Choices."
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11-12-2003, 12:34 PM | #15 |
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A few more thoughts-
I tend to doubt that even the physical presence of Ulmo would have swayed Turin away from a course he had set for himself. Recall that Ulmo sent messengers to Nargothrond warning against Turin's open warfare policies. Turin ignored them, and in fact treated them very scornfully. It occurs to me that even Hurin falls prey somewhat to pride. His outburst near the gates of Gondolin following his release smacks of bitterness in light of his deeds in defense of Turgon, and gave Morgoth his first estimate of the general region of the Hidden City. Finally, suicide is presented in Tokien as ultimately a prideful act (see also Denethor).
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11-12-2003, 02:48 PM | #16 | |
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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11-12-2003, 03:12 PM | #17 | |
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11-22-2003, 01:37 AM | #18 |
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brownjerkins and Artanis are correct. The Valar had seen what will come in the music. What Mandos said was not a curse, but foresight. He had a clearer vision of what will come than the others.
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12-04-2003, 09:39 PM | #19 |
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One thing that should be noted is that the nature of these curses is quite differeint.
Mandos's curse seems very much like a predictions- he /is/ the one that knows almost everything that will happen from the future, and he's saying "If you continue on this course the following things will happen..." Morgoth, on the other hand, curses in a very different fashion. He /is/ the guy that's spread his power throughout the entire earth, and he says "Look, Hurin. I'm the most powerful single entity in this universe. Guess what? In the next couple of decades I'm going to do everything I can to make the people that you most love miserable." (You will notice, of course, that this is what Morgoth does. His servant, Glaurung, tormented Hurin's children, the men that served him were the very same ones that took over Hurin's holdings and disenherited Morwen. Those are the most obvious signs of his manipulations, but there are no doubt more subtle ways in which he brought about their doom.)
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11-22-2004, 09:52 PM | #20 | |
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*bump*
This is a really interesting topic, and it’s hard to make a call one way or the other. While I don’t believe the curse exactly negated free will, I do believe that it had definite power and influence. One could argue that mere words, no matter by whom they are spoken, can have no power on their own, but then we would have to get into a discussion of the exact nature of power. One could argue that magic and curses cannot hurt someone unless they believe in them. However, it is apparent that Turin did believe in Morgoth’s curse. I don’t see it as simply an “excuse” that Turin used to justify his many failures. Turin believed Morgoth’s words, and thus gave them power. If Turin lived his life expecting to fail, then his failure was inevitable. While the curse did not negate his free will, it did affect his choices. In this way, the curse was in fact real. Quote:
Which makes me ask where foresight itself fits into this. I’d hate to switch the topic (yeah, right ), but does the mere existence of foresight preclude freewill?
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