08-29-2013, 11:49 PM | #1 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Syria
Oh my goodness... here we go again!
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08-30-2013, 01:16 AM | #2 |
Elf Lady
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Yes, and I'm still not convinced it was Assad, though I do believe it's likely.
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08-30-2013, 01:38 PM | #3 |
Quasi Evil
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The gas came from territory controlled by the Syrian regime not the rebels. And according to Kerry, the US had been monitoring the "active movement" of chemical weapons for three days prior, whatever that means. So it seems unlikely that it was the rebels trying to draw us in or something but anything is possible. The issue is if we (the US) do strike them and they do it again will we be forced to escalate or just sit on our hands in embarrassment?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-05-2013, 05:15 AM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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My concerns are:
1) where does the intelligence come from about this? I remember Colin Powell presenting "evidence" to the UN about WMDs that turned out to be a pile of stinky old pork pies. Tony Blair and the dodgy dossier etc. Quite rightly, people are highly sceptical about all of this. 2) even if it was the government, what is the right response? We have to think about the consequences, and whether justice is being served. Are we happy that innocent people are going to be killed by our punitive action? What about if it was your innocent relatives that were going to die? Again, I think ordinary people get this, it's the morons that run the show that don't seem to. 3) Are we just lobbing a few missiles in to make ourselves feel better? |
09-05-2013, 07:20 AM | #5 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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True, I hope the world will be a a little less trusting now if it comes to intelligence of illegal weapon use. We've been there before. That chemical weapons have been used is clear, who did it not so much.
I don't know whether military engaging in Syria is going to be the right action. I don't like Assad and his rethoric, but the rebels haven't scored any sympathy points with me either. Frankly, I can see both groups resorting to chemical warfare. But removing Assad is not going to stabilise the country at all, that much appears certain. If the world moves in, it better be prepared to camp out in Syria for years to come. |
09-05-2013, 06:05 PM | #6 |
Cyber Elf Lord
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Meddling in the affairs of other nations/people is a serious matter.
It is expensive for the intervening nation. Regardless of the reason for intervening, people in the country/area of intervention generally do not like the intervention forces and see them as invaders. Intervening can make things worse. I do not think I would like another nation lobbing missiles at my home town because they did not like the way the government here was running things. I realize I am probably oversimplifying things, but I do not think meddling in other countries with missiles is the correct response. Especially if the other country did not attack us.
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09-06-2013, 01:38 PM | #7 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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But what if they attacked their own citizens with deadly (and illegal) saran gas, resulting in a slow horrible death for over 1000 people including almost 500 babies and children? What if there has been a formal agreement among nations that any use of such chemical agents will not be tolerated and will be met with a response? What if dictators in North Korea and all over the world are watching closely to see if there is any kind of world reaction to this atrocity and a limp response or no response at all will encourage them to do the same perhaps on a much larger scale against their own citizens, their neighbors or you and me? Do we still think doing nothing is the best response?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-06-2013, 03:26 PM | #8 | |
Cyber Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Insidious Rex,
I am sympathetic to the deaths of children and other defenseless individuals. I question whether intervening into another nation is the best response. Who gets to determine whether which deaths and/or human rights violations warrant outside intervention into the affairs of individual nations? What about Somalia, Rwanda, Sudan or the Kashmir to name a few conflicts? What gives an individual (or group of) nation(s) the right to interfere in the affairs of another nation that has not attacked other nations? Would the US intervene in China due to human rights abuses? Does the fact that China has the ability to defend itself against outside attacks affect how the US (or other nations) deal with China? Would the US (or any other nation) tolerate foreign intervention by other nations? If the rebel group takes over Syria, will they be any better for the population? Will this just change who gets killed and has their human rights violated? re: the formal agreement:
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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09-09-2013, 12:17 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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I have a lot of sympathy with the global policeman argument. The idea that oppressed people everywhere at least know that the world will act if they get sprayed with poison gas. I really liked Obama's speech.
However: 1) Why is bombing them now the only possible action? 2) Where is the justice in killing loads more innocent people? 3) Why do the wheels of justice suddenly have to act without due process of any kind? None of these has been properly addressed by anyone, except Joe Public of course. I do think that Obama personally has totally mishandled this, as has David Cameron. He painted himself into a corner and now appeaers to be desperately trying to start a war to save his own credibility. Steady the buffs there chief. |
09-09-2013, 02:12 PM | #10 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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not sure if you were actually wanting to me to answer all your questions or were just laying them out to show the complexity of the issue (which I agree with. this is in no way a clean cut simple situation) but Ill take on a few I guess:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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