Queer things you hear....

[frodosampippinmerry]

In Fellowship chapter 2 There is a line that says "there were rumors of beasts more terrible than this but they had no name"

To what is Tolkien referring?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by frodosampippinmerry

In Fellowship chapter 2 There is a line that says "there were rumors of beasts more terrible than this but they had no name"

To what is Tolkien referring?

He, probably, meant the fell beasts or ents (they were not really friendly)

[me9996]

Probably (Is that how you spell that?) he ment what was said.

Terrable beasts with no names sounds like terrable beasts with no names to me.

But then again, I had no problems understanding the plot and setting of the matrix.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yeah, I mean, what do you want us to do, name them for you?

[Rían]

Fred, Bob, Shirley ...

[hectorberlioz]

Gwai and Rian, for shame!

I'm actually very interested in these little tidbits in LotR, and I do wonder about them (remember the talking Fox in FotR?), but I'm almost tempted to say that they are dead-end creations that he just liked and left in there. And I like them there, so don't anyone start accusing me of thinking Tolkien's editing bad, that wasn't my point.

[barrelrider110]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Fred, Bob, Shirley ...

LOL, how about Bert & Ernie?


Anyway, getting to the question... to put the true quote into context:
"There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor... Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

Whether the creatures did exist in fact or rumor is unclear. What is clear is that they had no name.

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

(remember the talking Fox in FotR?)

That is my FAVOURITE part of that book.

Wild beasts often presented very scary elements in Tolkien's work. For instance, Fingon was stalked by starving beasts on his way to Thangorodrim in The Silmarillion. Ungoliant, a wild creature, pretty much got the best of Morgoth when she trapped him in her webs in the Lammoth. Her daughter Shelop was certainly scary enough, as were the spiders of Mirkwood. When Tolkien refrences dark, nameless creatures, I always think of three things: Gollum, Mirkwood's spiders, and that odd frog with the light.

Primarily, though, I recall the spiders, lurking in dark crevices, because Tolkien was so deathly afraid of them.

[hectorberlioz]

You're right, he was scared of them pretty bad. I bet he made Young Christopher clean the cobwebs pretty regularly...

I think I read somewhere that became afraid of them when he was in the war...

[Sam]

terrible creatures without names?

could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Sam

terrible creatures without names?

could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

Not at that stage I don't think. Wolves certainly (who are kept out by Sheriffs and the river unless the river freezes over), half-orcs of Saruman, and generally fell beasties and refugees fleeing the "trouble in the south".

[captain carrot]

why not?

'Something' stirs in Mordor - rumours abound - evil stirs, trouble in the south -

why cannot possibly, these rumours refer to the Nazgul?

And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

when 2 + 2 is agreed to equal 4, as an agreed premise of logic -

perhaps you can enlighten us how Sam's seemingly water-tight assumption, could be so skewed???

-i'd re-read the quote were i you, there!

In no way is it shire-centric in it's validity or scope.

Best, BB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by captain carrot

why not?

'Something' stirs in Mordor - rumours abound - evil stirs, trouble in the south -

why cannot possibly, these rumours refer to the Nazgul?




when 2 + 2 is agreed to equal 4, as an agreed premise of logic -

perhaps you can enlighten us how Sam's seemingly water-tight assumption, could be so skewed???

-i'd re-read the quote were i you, there!

In no way is it shire-centric in it's validity or scope.

Best, BB

I'd invite you to follow your own advice. The paragraph in which the quote occurs refers specifically to Frodo attempting to gather news of events outside. He has not heard from Gandalf in sometime. Gandalf comes to Hobbiton and tells Frodo what his ring is and performs the final test....all that takes place later in the chapter.

Now let's go slowly here: Frodo in this section is gathering news, because he hasn't heard from Gandalf...i. e. this is before Gandalf's appearance in April 3018. The first appearance of the Nazgul is in battle at the taking of Osgiliath in June 3018, and the 9 didn't cross into the north until Sept. 18 3018, well after the murmured rumors.

So unless the 9 were abroad MUCH sooner than Tolkien explicitly says they were, it is unlikely that Frodo in the Shire is hearing rumors of them months or even years before they make an appearance again in public.

Further, if such rumors of the 9, nameless though they be, could reach Frodo they surely reached the Wise, and Aragorn and the other Rangers much less Gandalf and Elrond could hardly have been so lax in their preparations if they knew the 9 were abroad so much earlier than the book tells us (unless of course you buy into Olmert's theories).

Respectfully,

FB

[Olmer]

This is a stone in my yard, Forkbeard.

According to Olmer's theory and an unevasive Tolkien's suggestion the news about Nazgul have reached Shire's vicitity much more earlier. Supposedly, somewhere in 3017.
At the meeting with Strider in Bree Tolkien gives an impression that Aragorn is very well informed of the Riders nature and of the way they operate.
"They will return.And more are coming. There are others. I know their number."
They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place, where there is no help....They are terrible!"
"They come from Mordor"...
And then Tolkien hints that Aragorn has had a very unpleasant memory upon mentioning that Nazgul are so terrible, means that this really painful recollections could be fixed so firmly in a memory only by a personal experience.
"The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair...For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory..."
We know that in 3017, while looking for Gollum, he ventured quite close to Mordor, maybe even has been in Mordor. The suggestion of such happening is quite obviously laid out in his words at the Council.
"If man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last..."So, if Aragorn knew that Nazgul are on the move, he could definitely share this news with his merry-men, and, without doubt, with elves of Mirkwood and his best pal Gandalf.
So, Shire's rumors about "terrible beast" was not that groundless.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

This is a stone in my yard, Forkbeard.

According to Olmer's theory and an unevasive Tolkien's suggestion the news about Nazgul have reached Shire's vicitity much more earlier. Supposedly, somewhere in 3017.
At the meeting with Strider in Bree Tolkien gives an impression that Aragorn is very well informed of the Riders nature and of the way they operate.
"They will return.And more are coming. There are others. I know their number."
They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place, where there is no help....They are terrible!"
"They come from Mordor"...
And then Tolkien hints that Aragorn has had a very unpleasant memory upon mentioning that Nazgul are so terrible, means that this really painful recollections could be fixed so firmly in a memory only by a personal experience.
"The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair...For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory..."
We know that in 3017, while looking for Gollum, he ventured quite close to Mordor, maybe even has been in Mordor. The suggestion of such happening is quite obviously laid out in his words at the Council.
"If man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last..."So, if Aragorn knew that Nazgul are on the move, he could definitely share this news with his merry-men, and, without doubt, with elves of Mirkwood and his best pal Gandalf.
So, Shire's rumors about "terrible beast" was not that groundless.

No stones were intended, but I'm glad you saw my invitation and accepted it. But all Aragorn's statements are about the 9 AFTER they have been known to have been abroad in mid 3018. Further, it is no great task to know who the 9 were and how they operated even without ever having seen them or encountering them since they've been around an age and one can simply ask Glorfindel, Elrond, Gandalf, and the W-K does figure rather prominently in both Gondor's history and Arnor's...i.e. rather an important figure for Aragorn's immediate family line. So OF COURSE he knows their number, that they are fell, and terrible etc.

As for his memories, as you point out he was walking in the immediate area of the Black Gate to Mordor, and if he encountered one of the 9 there, that hardly means that other people have elsewhere much less that those rumors reached the Shire from Aragorn's walking there looking for Gollum in 3017 until the beginning of the year in the shire in 3018. I do think its a stretch.

[Gordis]

I think you are forgetting the fact that a nazgul visited Erebor TRICE sometime in 3017-3018. He came as an official ambassador of Mordor, making no mistery of his identity. I guess all Erebor knew about the visit, if not of the ambassador's proposals, and rumours about the strange messenger spread far and wide.

Dwarves were passing through the Shire constantly, on their way to the Blue mountains and could have spread the news. And the story has grown in the telling, as it usually happens.

Also 2 of the nazgul occupied Dol Guldur since 2951. I think the fact was known in Mirkwood, probably also in Laketown. One nazgul (Khamul's messenger) constantly circulated between Dol Guldur and Mordor - on horseback, as the nazgul got Fell Beasts later -at the end of 3018. It is likely that some people saw the messenger.

It is correct that the nazgul came forth from Minas Morgul only in June 3018, but I think first rumours about them came to the Shire not from Mordor, but from Erebor and Mirkwood - along the Great Road.

After all, Gandalf left Hobbitton and went South to Sarn ford to investigate because he HEARD some disquieting news in the Shire.

‘But I am going down beyond the southern borders to get some news, if I can. I have been idle longer than I should.’
He spoke lightly, but it seemed to Frodo that he looked rather worried. ‘Has anything happened?’ he asked.
‘Well no; but I have heard something that has made me anxious and needs looking into. If I think it necessary after all for you to get off at once, I shall come back immediately, or at least send word.

Perhaps Gandalf understood that the terrible creature discussed in the peaceful Shire might have been a nazgul?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think you are forgetting the fact that a nazgul visited Erebor TRICE sometime in 3017-3018. He came as an official ambassador of Mordor, making no mistery of his identity. I guess all Erebor knew about the visit, if not of the ambassador's proposals, and rumours about the strange messenger spread far and wide. Dwarves were passing through the Shire constantly, on their way to the Blue mountains and could have spread the news. And the story has grown in the telling, as it usually happens.

No, I hadn't forgotten, but we can easily discount it as the news that Frodo's hearing. We have no evidence that I knoe of that Men of Dale were coming West and that Frodo was chatting with them in the woods. So it wasn't they who were the source of the information. That leaves the dwarves traveling the Great Road. If they came from Erebor and knew of the visit of the Nazgul they would also know the content of the message: Where is the Shire and we're looking for a hobbit who was known to them "of a time." That is, Bilbo. So they come west, do not stop at Rivendell and tell Elrond that the 9 are abroad MONTHS before that became known, and don't tell Frodo, Bilbo's heir, that the Shire is being sought by Mordor, but instead "whisper" of things more terrible. I find that a stretch to believe: let's mention these fell things but not tell you that they're looking for your uncle and for your dwelling place.

Also 2 of the nazgul occupied Dol Guldur since 2951. I think the fact was known in Mirkwood, probably also in Laketown.

That it was known to the Wise, including Thranduil, is probably true, but we have no evidence that it was known as other than an evil place to the Beornings, the men of Laketown. So once could say that these things more terrible might refer to the Nazgul, only if we say that those saying those things had no idea what a Nazgul was or had ever seen one, only that there was a Nameless terror in the south of Mirkwood at Dol Guldur, which had been there ever since Sauron had begun to take shape as the Necromancer. I. E. so general and generalized as to be of little use.

One nazgul (Khamul's messenger) constantly circulated between Dol Guldur and Mordor - on horseback, as the nazgul got Fell Beasts later -at the end of 3018. It is likely that some people saw the messenger.

Perhaps, but immaterial, since at the end of 3018 Frodo is in Rivendell having already encountered the 9, not back in the Shire gathering news because Gandalf hasn't been around for a long time.

After all, Gandalf left Hobbitton and went South to Sarn ford to investigate because he HEARD some disquieting news in the Shire.

But not news of the 9. He says in Council of Elrond that he was disquiet and went to gather news (unlike earlier where he tells Frodo that he has heard news), and that there he heard of war and defeat in Gondor, and the Black Shadow...i. e. he didn't hear anything about the 9 until the end of June 3018, AFTER he left the Shire and went to Sarn Ford, not while he was still in it.

Perhaps Gandalf understood that the terrible creature discussed in the peaceful Shire might have been a nazgul?

Not according to Gandalf himself in Council of Elrond who reports that even hearing about the Black Shadow gave him a sense of disquiet and that he noted the refugees from the south had an air of some terror put upon them, but he didn't make the connection to the 9 or the W-K until he encountered Radagast.

[Gordis]

Now, let me post the whole quote instead of one line already posted, especially as it was not accurately quoted, by the way:

There were rumours of strange things happening in the world outside; and as Gandalf had not at that time appeared or sent any message for several years, Frodo gathered all the news he could. Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning; but they were leaving Middle-earth and were no longer concerned with its troubles. There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts - if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor.
That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting. It seemed that the evil power in Mirkwood had been driven out by the White Council only to reappear in greater strength in the old strongholds of Mordor. The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons. And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.

Note: CREATURES, not BEASTS. A nazgul could be called a "creature", but hardly a "beast".

The source of information is stated: mostly Dwarves, maybe some Elves. Dwarves were coming West by the Great Road from far away. To me it sounds like there might have been some from Erebor.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

If they came from Erebor and knew of the visit of the Nazgul they would also know the content of the message: Where is the Shire and we're looking for a hobbit who was known to them "of a time." That is, Bilbo. So they come west, do not stop at Rivendell and tell Elrond that the 9 are abroad MONTHS before that became known, and don't tell Frodo, Bilbo's heir, that the Shire is being sought by Mordor, but instead "whisper" of things more terrible. I find that a stretch to believe: let's mention these fell things but not tell you that they're looking for your uncle and for your dwelling place.

Most of Erebor Dwarves likely knew about the strange messenger who came trice to Dain. He was rather unusual: came alone at night, asked the King to meet him outside, not delivered his message in the Great Hall as was the custom.. Also there must have been gatekeepers, guards etc who also spoke with the messenger and felt unduly frightened. So, there was plenty to gossip about in Erebor. But I highly doubt that Mordor's proposals were ever made public.

'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night.

It seems only Dain and his chieftains and counsellors knew the contents of Mordor's proposals.
Note also, that the messenger came a year before the Counsil of Elrond - in October 3017, but Dain decided to warn Elrond and Bilbo a whole year later - so he was not much concerned about Bilbo, much less about his heir in the Shire. He was primarily concerned about the fate of Erebor.

We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old.

In other words, Dain doubted that Sauron would keep his part of the bargain, otherwise the Dwarves would have been sorely tempted to strike a deal and tell Sauron where the Shire was and that Bilbo dwelt in Rivendell.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

That it was known to the Wise, including Thranduil, is probably true, but we have no evidence that it was known as other than an evil place to the Beornings, the men of Laketown.

To my knowledge, poor ol' Thranduil was never counted among the Wise, he was never part of the White Counsil.

The men of Dale probably didn't possess enough knowledge to identify the occupants of Dol Guldur as the Nazgul, at least not till 3017. But in 3017 King Brand in Dale also got messengers from Mordor:

We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield.

We are not told whether the messenger to Dale was a nazgul, or not. Most likely, yes, because Dain "was afraid". Also, Sauron tried to restrict all the Ring-Hunt to himself and the nazgul. A mortal, if told of the One Ring's whereabouts in Dale, might have been tempted to go there and seize the Ring for himself. A Nazgul wouldn't do such a thing as Sauron held his Ring and so controlled him.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Perhaps, but immaterial, since at the end of 3018 Frodo is in Rivendell having already encountered the 9, not back in the Shire gathering news because Gandalf hasn't been around for a long time.

I meant that ever since 2951 there was a perfect opportunity to meet a Black Rider in Southern Mirkwood or on the road along the East Bank of Anduin. I am sure there were some people who met this nazgul and told tales about it.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

i. e. he [Gandalf] didn't hear anything about the 9 until the end of June 3018, AFTER he left the Shire and went to Sarn Ford, not while he was still in it.

Well "anything" is too strong a statement. Most likely in the Shire he heard "rumours", not "news".
The news he heard at Sarn Ford was of the Mordor's assault on Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow there.. And later, Rhadagast told him that the Nazgul - (all Nine) were going to the Shire:

"Nazgûl," he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black."
And what was Gandal'f reaction?
'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it.
It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Not according to Gandalf himself in Council of Elrond who reports that even hearing about the Black Shadow gave him a sense of disquiet and that he noted the refugees from the south had an air of some terror put upon them, but he didn't make the connection to the 9 or the W-K until he encountered Radagast

Yes, it is so. Amazingly, neither Gandalf, nor Boromir, were able to understand what Black Shadow was there at Osgiliath. After all, they SHOULD have known in Gondor WHO lived in Minas Morgul since 2002, in fact they DID know, as Faramir's words later prove. So, how come they were unable to recognise the Morgul Lord? I think it is a plot-hole in the book.

[captain carrot]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'd invite you to follow your own advice...


... Now let's go slowly here:


Respectfully,

FB

... 'Now let's go slowly here:' - ah ever the charmer, FB! -

never -

Never in the history of the whole moot, has such an indefensible position ever been taken, so recklessly and with such daring audacity!

Let us not got slowly here!

As a lamb to the slaughter will you be, if, as king kanute, you stand foursqaure against the incoming tide with only a stick to draw in the sand against the mighty sea ...

Were i you, i would re-read your opening position:

Apart from the incontrovertible evidence and the sheer strength of arguments that can be forwarded that the 'rumours' could easily be attributable to the nine

the whole point initially, was not did they refer directly to the nine:

terrrible creatures without names?
could they have been refering to the Nazgul???

BECAUSE they had not names in rumour - the question was, were in fact these unamed terrible creatures that had no name in rumour - actually referrring without knowledge in rumour to the Nazgul?

It matters not one whit, if any in the north or fleeing from the South, know exactly what they are - but that what they are might actually be the nazgul -

that was Sam's assertion / question.

As for the rest, both Olmer and Gor have added enough to, at the very least, make open the very real possibility that RUMOUR might very easily be referring to the Nazgul either directly or indirectly (i.e. the terrible things without name, were actually nazgul, but that RUMOUR did not yet know that or was able to confirm their name, hence they were terrible and nameless in rumour - but what in fact rumour alluded to was the nazgul)

There are about a billion other arguments, i just don't have time -

nor the patience to go slowly



Best, BB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now, let me post the whole quote instead of one line already posted, especially as it was not accurately quoted, by the way:

Yes, I'm aware of the inaccurate reference in the first post, I reread the context before replying myself. In any case, I don't think this helps you much.

Note: CREATURES, not BEASTS. A nazgul could be called a "creature", but hardly a "beast".

Yes, a very important point.

The source of information is stated: mostly Dwarves, maybe some Elves. Dwarves were coming West by the Great Road from far away. To me it sounds like there might have been some from Erebor.

Specifically it says " But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West." In what way can the dwarves of Erebor, known to Frodo who in Moria recalls Balin's visit to the Shire, who have been travellng back and forth on the Road since Thorin and Bilbo's day, who know Frodo as Bilbo's heir, be called "strange dwarves"? One could make a case that Erebor certainly counts as a "far country," but these dwarves are coming West to find refuge. Nothing has actually happened in Erebor yet which would cause refugees to come westward. It seems to me more likely that these dwarves are not of the House of Durin but of other houses in the East where Sauron has been active preparing his strokes against Gondor and Lothlorien who are coming West to seek refuge in areas untouched by Sauron's hand as of yet.

Most of Erebor Dwarves likely knew about the strange messenger who came trice to Dain. He was rather unusual: came alone at night, asked the King to meet him outside, not delivered his message in the Great Hall as was the custom.. Also there must have been gatekeepers, guards etc who also spoke with the messenger and felt unduly frightened. So, there was plenty to gossip about in Erebor. But I highly doubt that Mordor's proposals were ever made public.

Why? They certainly weren't secret demands, and announced openly. The meeting at the gate was a show of power: the Nazgul needn't go to Dain, he makes Dain come to him, and so there's nothing "secret" there either. MOre to the point though, if dwarves from Erebor are relocating to the Blue Mtns in the West, they can't just go traipsing alalalala down the road, Dain is their lord. They need to seek permission from him. Do you think that Dain, or Gloin for that matter, isn't going to say to someone going West, "Oh, while you're going take this note to Elrond and this one to Frodo and warn them about Mordor, they helped us, we owe them some help." I find it hard to believe that if members of their kingdom were heading West, they would not have taken the opportunity to send word, esp. to Bilbo and Frodo that Mordor wanted them.

It seems only Dain and his chieftains and counsellors knew the contents of Mordor's proposals.

It only seems so because you want it to seem so. There's nothing in the book that would indicate this, and making it bold on the page doesn't make it any more true than if it were plain text. If all you have is bolding to make a point, it isn't much of a point.

Note also, that the messenger came a year before the Counsil of Elrond - in October 3017, but Dain decided to warn Elrond and Bilbo a whole year later - so he was not much concerned about Bilbo, much less about his heir in the Shire. He was primarily concerned about the fate of Erebor.

But you're missing the point. The point was not whether Dain did or didn't send an embassy, but rather if dwarves of his kingdom WERE ALREADY HEADING WEST ANYWAY THAT HE CHOSE *NOT* TO WARN ELROND AND BILBO AND FRODO! If so, as you contend, it places Dain in a rather callow light, and all the dwarf kingdom of the Lonely Mountain since it would have cost them no effort at all to send a short message to Elrond and/or Bilbo and/or Frodo and/or Gandalf, 3 of whom had been more or less instrumental in their success at reestablishing said kingdom. It rather suggests to me that the "strange dwarves" Frodo is encountering are not from Erebor. Sending a separate and special embassy is a different matter altogether.

To my knowledge, poor ol' Thranduil was never counted among the Wise, he was never part of the White Counsil.

We don't know that for certain, since the members are never listed. It is probable though, in my view, and if we want to discuss this in detail we should break it off into another thread. But more to the immediate discussion, it doesn't matter if he were a member of the WC or not, since what we were discussing was how widely known it would be that Nazgul inhabited Dol Guldur. I originally thought that it likely that the WC and Thranduil probably knew, but now I've changed my mind. For one thing, Legolas only says that Dol Guldur is still an evil place and that they do not go that way, which suggests to me that they know it stinks, but not what the source of the stink is, if you'll pardon the analogy. So apparently Thranduil does not know. And does the WC? It meets for the last time in 2953, 2 years after the Nazgul take up residence, while Sauron still has the 9 held back not operating openly. The council doesn't discuss Dol Guldur, but rather the Rings. Earlier, Gandalf had to enter the place to discover for certain it was Sauron, one can only assume that one would have to reenter the place to determine the presence of the definite presence of the Nazgul. So I doubt that the WC and Thranduil knew in any specific way that the Nazgul were there.

I meant that ever since 2951 there was a perfect opportunity to meet a Black Rider in Southern Mirkwood or on the road along the East Bank of Anduin. I am sure there were some people who met this nazgul and told tales about it.

I actually doubt it rather highly. There weren't a lot of human settlements around Dol Guldur or Mordor and of course at this point in time according to all our sources Sauron still held the 9 in secret until he was forced to use them openly, and then he wanted it to appear that using them openly was merely an anti-Gondor strategy, not a race for the Ring. Further, Gandalf tells Frodo he has not heard of the 9 being active, but who knows they may be soon and then later that had he known the 9 were abroad and active, he would have left with Frodo in June. I. E. if tales had been told about a rider to Mordor like the Nazgul, such a tale would eventually have reached Gandalf, Galadriel or Thranduil before the events of 3018, and so knowing that the 9 were active in Dol Guldor and other places, Gandalf would have acted much quicker and not been quite as lulled by Saruman's words. The 9 indeed were something to make one such as Gandalf busy as a beaver. So Gandalf et al seem not to know that the 9 are active, that 2 are in Dol Guldur, and no stories are being told to reach others ears. So you may be as sure of it as you like, but it would appear that Tolkien the author was much less sure than you are.

Well "anything" is too strong a statement. Most likely in the Shire he heard "rumours", not "news".

I don't think so, there's no evidence whatsoever that his "disturbing news" was about the 9 specifically.

The news he heard at Sarn Ford was of the Mordor's assault on Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow there.. And later, Rhadagast told him that the Nazgul - (all Nine) were going to the Shire:

Not just that, but that they were abroad. That bit of news came first from Radagast, Gandalf didn' t know that they were abroad when he was in Hobbiton.

]QUOTE] And what was Gandal'f reaction?
'I knew then what I had dreaded without knowing it.
It seems to me, Gandalf was prepared for this news by some obscure rumours he heard in the Shire [/QUOTE]
I think you're reading into the story. Having a bad feeling and hearing news are not the same thing. Gandalf has been feeling that something dreadful has occurred, but he doesn't know what. Besides, if he was "prepared for it", why then does his heart sink so much, why is he so unprepared to hear it confirmed?

Yes, it is so. Amazingly, neither Gandalf, nor Boromir, were able to understand what Black Shadow was there at Osgiliath. After all, they SHOULD have known in Gondor WHO lived in Minas Morgul since 2002, in fact they DID know, as Faramir's words later prove. So, how come they were unable to recognise the Morgul Lord? I think it is a plot-hole in the book.

Overall, I agree. Especially Gandalf who should have put 2 and 2 together and made 4, or in this case made "Nazgul." For Faramir and Boromir, they can be excused somewhat. They are mere men after all, and although they may intellectually know who is in Minas Morgul, it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll know it when they see it, if you follow me. I. E. knowing it without experiencing it can sometimes be different things. Faramir, being a bit more intellectual and interested in lore probably figured it out. Boromir probably didn't give it much thought. But Gandalf should have.

FB