Elvish Twins

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-10-2005, 01:56 AM

Which twin is older?

Morgoth's Ring, p212, it is written: "a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year."

So it seems that begetting is considered the beginning of life instead of birth itself. Biological speaking, identical twins come into existence at the same time, since they come from one egg. So can one twin be technically older than the other?

Count Comfect · 02-10-2005, 02:13 AM

Well, fraternal twins, clearly, yes. Identical twins, unless they gestate differently than in humans, no. Because they start as one egg, so they get begotten at once.

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-10-2005, 02:58 AM

Exactly.

What's confusing me might be the youngest sons of FÃ«anor. Their father-names are PityafinwÃ« and TelufinwÃ« (if I remember right, just had to send back HoME12 for a replacement), which mean "Little FinwÃ«" and "Last FinwÃ«", which would indicate that TelufinwÃ« is considered the youngest.

But how can this be?

**Nurvingiel** · 02-10-2005, 07:10 AM

Well, they couldn't both come out at the same time. Maybe "Little Finwe(2 dots)" came out last.

EDIT: Poor Nerdanel! And she had 7 sons! Set the Elven record.

Both their "regular" Elvish names start with "A" IIRC but I forget what they are. Is this a trend though?

Based on a very limited sample size, we also have Elladan and Elrohir.

Embladyne · 02-10-2005, 05:50 PM

Their other names are Amras and Amrod. It's because they basically mean the same thing.

***RÃan*** · 02-11-2005, 01:49 AM

Great question, El! Are you avoiding studying?

(I always came up with lots of interesting things to think about when I was avoiding studying!)

They probably just decided by who came out first, in the case of a biological tie.

I like how they called each other "Ambarussa", as in :

Quote:

Then Ambarussa went pale with fear. 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you call Ambarto)?' he said.

*sends buckets of sympathy to El, who got MR, only to tragically find parts of the Shibboleth missing, and had to send it back! Oh, the agony!*

ElemmÃrÃ« · 02-11-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Great question, El! Are you avoiding studying?

(I always came up with lots of interesting things to think about when I was avoiding studying!)

Of course! I'm always avoiding studying! I've got a test in half an hour, and look what I'm doing!

Quote:

They probably just decided by who came out first, in the case of a biological tie.

Maybe it was just FÃ«anor's need for dominance over the rest of the family... Last FinwÃ« indeed.

Quote:

I like how they called each other "Ambarussa"

Me too.

I think I'm beginning to use the Quenya names more than the Sindarin ones.

Quote:

*sends buckets of sympathy to El, who got MR, only to tragically find parts of the Shibboleth missing, and had to send it back! Oh, the agony!*

I suppose I'll get a new copy... eventually.

And maybe it'll even be complete... *crosses fingers*

Embladyne · 02-12-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

*sends buckets of sympathy to El, who got MR, only to tragically find parts of the Shibboleth missing, and had to send it back! Oh, the agony!*

Yeah, I ordered it for her, and knew she wouldn't mind if I took a quick look at it before my last class of the day, as I would see her after that...and, the page I wanted was missing! I thought I was imagining it.

Isn't it interesting, though, that Nerdanel named the twins by the same name?

***RÃan*** · 02-16-2005, 05:09 PM

Yes, I find that very odd that she gave them the same name, and was ambivilent about which one was called Umbarto ...

One of my favorite bits of trivia in the Shibboleth is the strange and unique characteristic of Aegnor's hair! (I'll let you find it!)

02-10-2005, 01:56 AM	#1
ElemmÃrÃ« avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Elvish Twins Which twin is older? Morgoth's Ring, p212, it is written: "a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year." So it seems that begetting is considered the beginning of life instead of birth itself. Biological speaking, identical twins come into existence at the same time, since they come from one egg. So can one twin be technically older than the other? __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

02-10-2005, 02:13 AM	#2
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Well, fraternal twins, clearly, yes. Identical twins, unless they gestate differently than in humans, no. Because they start as one egg, so they get begotten at once. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

02-10-2005, 02:58 AM	#3
ElemmÃrÃ« avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	Exactly. What's confusing me might be the youngest sons of FÃ«anor. Their father-names are PityafinwÃ« and TelufinwÃ« (if I remember right, just had to send back HoME12 for a replacement), which mean "Little FinwÃ«" and "Last FinwÃ«", which would indicate that TelufinwÃ« is considered the youngest. But how can this be? __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

02-10-2005, 05:50 PM	#5
Embladyne Honourary Elitist Inklette Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 704	Their other names are Amras and Amrod. It's because they basically mean the same thing. __________________ Even on the pinnacle of a palace a crow does not become an eagle. My DA page

02-16-2005, 05:09 PM	#9
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Yes, I find that very odd that she gave them the same name, and was ambivilent about which one was called Umbarto ... One of my favorite bits of trivia in the Shibboleth is the strange and unique characteristic of Aegnor's hair! (I'll let you find it!) __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

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