11-08-2002, 01:58 PM | #1 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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anti-war and other demonstration groups
I had been looking around for a while at anti-war groups and other so called "peace activist" groups. It seems as if they're all one sided. They don't go out and demonstrate against the Iraqi Emabassy, or the North Korean Embassy. They seem to only demonstrate against the Western countries (primarily against the US).
They condemn Israel - but are silent on the Palestinian Suicide Bombers. They talk about civil rights for arabs in the US - but allow 10's of thousands to be executed, tortured and imprisoned for life without trials in the Middle East. They allow North Koreans to starve without organising a mass demonstration against the North Korean government. I wonder how "peace activists" (primarily made up of people against the US and the west) expect to be taken seriously. This is a prime example of a so called peace organisation - International A.N.S.W.E.R.. I got this link off of BBC in the article - US intensifies Iraq build-up. I question why BBC included the link for this website when the organisation wasn't even mentioned in the article. They also contained this link - MoveOn.org. Amazingly they didn't include any pro-war sites, which obviously there are. I'm now getting a better understanding of why the Europeans have such a different view of the world than the US does. I also see where the BBC stands on the issues. They also heavily gear their reporting to win their readers support for the causes and ideas they believe in. I e-mailed this to International A.N.S.W.E.R. Organisation Quote:
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11-08-2002, 02:34 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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It has always been the way with "peace" organisations. Whatever their original intentions, they will always be come to be seen as an inherent weakness in tolerant Western societies that can be exploited by nations who wouldn't let them survive for 5 minutes at home. CND used to madden me in the 80s by their openly one-sided stance.
And I'm afraid it seem that you do NOT see where the BBC "stands" on the war. The organisation strives for a balanced view where possible - during the Falklands War they refused to refer to British forces as "our" forces despite complaints from the then Conservative government, and in the famous "Death On the Rock" documentary the official version of the killing of IRA terrorists was challenged. The recent Panorama feature on Saddam Hussein could not have been more critical of either him or his regime. It is the BBC's job to cover views from across the spectrum and point out both pros and cons - they might not get it right all the time, but I do think they try to. As Britons often find the BBC, if anything, too neutral, I suppose it isn't surprising that those from overseas do when it covers events in which they have an interest. As to web links, I think they're dodgey. With so many sites in the world it's almost impossible to link to a reprsentative selection - I think it would be wiser for such organisations to give NO links at all. Incidentally, when I entered a search on the Panorama feature on Saddam Hussein, the top sponsored link that appeared on the right was to a site offering the Iraqi view - and I hardly think Google are anti-American.
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11-08-2002, 03:02 PM | #3 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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They of course may be puppet demonstrators/organisations though that have been put in place by various countries that are against the US and the west. They could be using our freedoms against us. I'm not sure if this is what you might be saying. Quote:
I've been looking at the BBC site for a while. They do repeatedly throw in their own comments - such as "By European standards, both the Democrats and Republicans are remarkably similar in their ideology - or lack of it." - City versus country The lack of our political parties having or not having an ideology is an opinion - it's not factual news. When I read statements such as these - I question the value of the reporting agency to be unbiased. Obviously this was a dig at the American political system - which I had seen over and over again in their coverage of the American elections in the BBC website. So - it was not over just that one statement that I am questioning BBC's reporting style - just like I think CNN over-sensationalizes and sugarcoats things. Quote:
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11-08-2002, 05:24 PM | #4 | |
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11-09-2002, 03:53 PM | #5 | |
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Hum, you know, if I’m not mistaken that article you choose is an opinion article, as opposed to “regular” news. Others cases you have found may be similar. Personally I don’t see BBC as not being neutral, I fail to see that leftist stance you seem to find in it. Even in that statement you refer. After all, it is usually accepted that European parties traditionally have a clearer separation between Right and Left that the one that can be found in the US parties (but in recent times this division is being eroded, with the “Third Way”, and the “socially concerned right”). I believe that was the argument of the journalist, and also the discarding of ideology issues for electoral proposes, (something that is not just an American “problem”). It is true you will not see any pro-war organization in European news. War is still taboo in Europe (any war, that is). This is not simply a media stance but a “common man” attitude. You won’t find many individuals or organizations publicly claiming to be pro-war around here (whatever the war may be). Even among those that would support an action against Iraq, war is seen at best as a regrettable necessity, not something to be vocal about. Politicians and organizations are very careful with this. That is one of the reasons why the endorsement of the UN is seen as so important; a war becomes the enforcement of a legitimate supranational entity will. Under this light, it is no longer a war between nations, but a military action of enforcement of the legitimate international community. The rule of Law instead of the rule of Might. As for the general quality of European journalism, I must say that I found somewhat ironic that the critics you make are mostly the ones I’ve heard about the media in the US. Around here it is generally seen in a rather poor light; as being somewhat biased and usually of limited scope. I don’t know about that, since I do have a limited range of first hand experience about it, but some of the critics I know are journalists, and have lived in the US. I don’t intend to “throw it back at you,” I’m merely pointing out that what you have found may be simply different cultural perspectives.
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11-09-2002, 04:40 PM | #6 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I have a lot of problems with US media - I think that the media should just present the facts and let the viewers/readers make up their own mind. Most media outlets slant the news to support their views. I just had noticed a lot of erroneous reporting on the BBC site concerning the American elections and how our political system works.
The article I mentioned was about the American political system. I stand by the fact that adding "or lack of one" after talking about the ideology of the American political system was a European dig. I was more interested in finding out about what people think of "peace activists". They only seem to complain about western countries and don't demonstrate against Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Cuba, etc.
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11-09-2002, 06:07 PM | #7 | |||
Elf Lord
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True, errors and superficiality may be a problem of journalism everywhere. Information is usually processed fast, and little analysis is given to it. Also one can argue that the general qualifications of journalists may be declining. This is probably a universal problem. Quote:
But you are, in a sense, right; the author was saying is a traditional cliché. It may be already outdated, even if it was only given as a mean to compare different realities. Quote:
It is true that many are too PC to may taste, and therefore have a tendency to have a distorted view of what and why happens in the third world. Others have a more pragmatic view and actually have very low expectations in relation to the Third World, but are still much more critical and active when it is their country or the West that does the action that displeases them, since they have come to expect more from it, and perhaps more importantly, believe they can do something about it. Only a very small minority of those that protest against the “state of things” are actually violent. However it is a known tactic of those who have a harder political agenda to send “agent provocateurs” among peaceful protesters to create disturbances and draw the police into indiscriminate action. A way to force many moderates into a harder line, and captivate public opinion. Unfortunately the police seem to be to keen to fall into the game, and sometimes actually dispense the provocation to overreact. Fortunately, this may be changing, and the most progressive police forces seem to have become more aware of the problem and how to react to it (with selective, proportional action).
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11-09-2002, 06:47 PM | #8 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Americans were shocked by Le Pen's election in France. Even though it was only a "primary" - it was still shocking that a European country in todays world could even vote for someone like that. Also what is scary is he's not the only one out there in European politics. In order to get elected in the US - you really do have to move toward the middle. That is one of the reason that outsiders don't see much difference between the two major US parties. There are major differences still though. A lot of the differences deal with domestic issues that don't really concern the rest of the world though. Quote:
With all the heated comments from the demonstrators and from my friend about the police - I can see very easily how a situation like that can quickly get out of control. In America - not sure about in Europe or eleswhere - when demonstrators get out of hand like they did in Seattle and the various times during the WTO meetings - their message gets completely lost. Most people just think of them as fanatics. Some people may actually have some good things to say - but they end up being so fanatical no one in the US really listens. It just seems like a bunch of elementary school students starting a food fight because their mad that they can't go out on the playground. They just seem very imature. Also - when demonstrartors don't have respect for someone else's propert - such as McDonalds - then why would people listen? Why do they think they deserve respect when they're not showing any respect to others?
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11-09-2002, 07:01 PM | #9 |
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What would be the point of protesting against a non-democracy? I'm surprised to see criticism of a great American democratic tradition. The only reason to protest is if the is some recourse. The first thing you see in a failing ditatorship is the protests of people sensing the imminent fall. Remember the protests in Belgrade that lead to Milosovics removal after he denied the election. Peace protesters are just voicing their opinion. What could possibly be wrong with that?
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11-09-2002, 07:21 PM | #10 | |
Elf Lord
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You speak about captivating the common man, but I presume that what most hardliners want is not that, at least directly. They wish to bring more moderates into their lines, by forcing them into confronts they didn’t start. Other times they simply want to create mistrust in the population against the authorities, the rest, they believe, it will follow. Also do not forget that these infiltrates do not necessarily have an extreme version of the ideals and goals of the other protesters. Their vision may be very different indeed, so they feel that by disrupting such manifestations they are not hurting their “cause.”
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11-09-2002, 07:45 PM | #11 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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A lot of people demontrate against Israel - but very view of these same organisations condemn the Suicide Bombers. How is bombing innocent people justified?
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11-09-2002, 07:49 PM | #12 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-09-2002, 07:53 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Did you see this? Europe Protest
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 08:04 PM | #14 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And I agree - they demonstrate against demoncratic countries because they know they can't demonstrate against dictatorships. But just because they think it won't do any good - doesn't mean they shouldn't try, especially if they are truly for world peace . Also - as I've stated before in other threads - no matter what happens it's America's fault. At least this time one of the protestors lumped France and Britain in there too. - Quote:
Many of them are demonstrating against a resolution to make sure that Iraq is complying with the ban on WMD - something that was not enforced by the UN before. If they were truly for peace - they should at least allow the weapons inspectors in there. Making sure Iraq doesn't have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons will insure the peace more than let him go on making them. Do they really think that if he gets them and builds up an arsenal uninterrupted that he will just sit back and not use them? Will they be demontsrating against Iraq if he invades his neighbors like he did when he invaded Kuwait?
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11-09-2002, 08:26 PM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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11-09-2002, 08:32 PM | #16 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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In Indiana there were these teenagers that ransacked and completely destroyed a 99% completed house because it was built on the lot where they used to hang out. They ripped out the bathroom fixtures, put holes in the walls and everything. They had no respect for the family that was moving in there (who legally bought the property). Their parents also showed the same lack of respect - they told reporters that their should have been "no tresspassing" signs. This act of vanadlism is no different than if demonstarors destroy personal property.
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11-09-2002, 08:34 PM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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11-09-2002, 09:06 PM | #18 |
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Whenever I think of protesting, my thoughts go back to that horrible thing that went down at Tianamen Square in China. I could easily cry over that.
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11-09-2002, 09:15 PM | #19 | |
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Edited to add link: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB16/documents/ too grim Last edited by Coney : 11-09-2002 at 09:18 PM. |
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11-10-2002, 12:50 AM | #20 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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That's a cool link Coney. By the way - I hope no one thinks that I'm against demonstrating or voicing one's opinion. I am however against the mob violence. I would like to see some of these "peace activists" and demonstrators come out and organise a huge march against the countries that perform attrocious human rights abuses. They seem to be able to get 100,000 people to demonstate against the US going to war with Iraq - something we haven't done yet - but there weren't 100,000 marching when the Kurds were gassed or when Meloshevic was performing "ethnic cleansing".
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