12-12-2004, 05:42 PM | #1 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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Maedhros and Gwindor
Okay. This has been bothering me for a while. If there's an old thread on it, I'm sorry, but I couldn't find it.
The Silmarillion: Quote:
Quote:
Any ideas?
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12-12-2004, 07:03 PM | #2 | ||
Elven Warrior
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i dont think that Maedhros was in Angband as long as Gwindor, and his torment was very different. Maedhros was a hostage:
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Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland |
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12-12-2004, 07:38 PM | #3 |
avocatus diaboli
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Actually, I considered that.
Okay, Turin was 8 years old at the Nirnaeth and dwelt in Thingol's halls for 9 years. He wandered around for X years, and was still just entering full manhood when Gwindor brought him to Nargothrond. So, in my estimation, Gwindor was probably in Angband somewhere between 10 and 15 years. In an old post, it had been stated that Maedhros was a captive for 23-24 years of the sun. Personally... I think that being hanged off a cliff for that long is worse than toiling in a dungeon...
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12-12-2004, 09:07 PM | #4 |
The Insufferable
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For a human, perhaps.
For an Elf, whose body is meant to last forever, just hanging there probably wouldn't nescessarily be that tormentous, as long as A) The stress wasn't more than they could handle, and B) They still got whatever sustenance they needed. I can easily see a healthy elf being able to 'hang around' practically forever in those conditions. Also - is it explicitly stated that Maedhros was left hanging from the cliff? I always thought he had been left standing on a ledge, with one arm chained above his head (otherwise how would Fingon have been able to get alongside him and cut him down?)
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12-12-2004, 09:44 PM | #5 | |
avocatus diaboli
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Quote:
precipice 1. An overhanging or extremely steep mass of rock, such as a crag or the face of a cliff. 2. The brink of a dangerous or disastrous situation: on the precipice of defeat. too many definitions for "hung" #1 says "To fasten from above with no support from below; suspend." I think that's explicit. And it is described as "torment", and of course, Morgoth isn't exactly a nice guy...
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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12-12-2004, 10:51 PM | #6 | ||||
The Tall
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This one is for my friend Artanis!
Let's get the facts straight: Maedhros was captured in 1498 Age of the Trees. Maedhros was released from Angband in the year 5 of the FA. (Age of the Sun) I have made a transformation since the beginning of time, through the end of the first age. The time between his capture and release would be aprox: 720005 - 719712 years of the sun = 293 years in which he was imprisioned. Or if you prefer 2*144 + 5 = 293 years. (See Annals of Aman for the dates) (Note= 1 Valian year = 144 sun years. ) See note 5 of Myths Transfomred in Morgoth's Rings As for Gwindor: He was captured in 472 FA and released in 489 FA. So he was held for 17 years. Therefore comments like these: Quote:
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There are these manuscripts and typescripts called: Annals of Aman, Grey Annals and Tale of Years to look for the dates when the events happened in the FA. Quote:
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Flight of the Noldoli from Valinor Quote:
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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12-13-2004, 08:01 PM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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haha, ya i dont have all of the HoME yet, i only have both lost tales and ive only read the first one, but im hoping to get the next 2 for xmas
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Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland |
12-13-2004, 11:14 PM | #8 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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Me too. Last time I tried to buy one of the Later Silmarillion volumes, I almost ended up getting myself killed... When you don't have the information, you have to resort to simple math (and hope Christopher Tolkien didn't screw up too badly ) or look at old posts. Annals of Aman are in... which one? HoME 10, 11 or 12? Thanks for setting the facts straight though, Maedhros.
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Consider it a belated birthday present. I wondered if it could simply be attributed to this: Quote:
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~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~
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12-14-2004, 04:01 AM | #9 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Hello Rusco!
Elemmire, perhaps it may help to look at it this way, as I think you have already: Quote:
But this: Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-14-2004 at 04:07 AM. |
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12-14-2004, 06:27 AM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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Gwindor is called "a very valiant prince".
It's good to see that other elves, not just those of the House of Finwe are shown to be "great" themselves.
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12-14-2004, 10:46 AM | #11 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-14-2004, 10:50 AM | #12 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-14-2004, 10:59 AM | #13 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-14-2004, 11:01 AM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
I don't think Tolkien made any special reference to certain elves being able to heal themselves better than others. I think it was just a general trait of elvish Fea. I think that Maedhros was able to endure "better" that Gwindor for a couple of reasons: 1. Maedhros had more motivation and incentive that must have spurred him (or his "spirit") on; he had set himself up for the obvious trap by Morgoth. He fell for it and must have been kicking himself (literally, since he only had the use of one arm ) that he fell easy prey to Morgoth. 2. The Oath drove him so he focuses his pain and torment, not to mention swollen anger into the positive energy of basic warriorship. However, as has been said, Gwindor's torment must have been of a different nature to Maedhros'. He was more a thrall than a hostage and I could just imagine the merciless soldiers of Morgoth exploiting the thrall-elves to the maximum.
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12-14-2004, 11:06 AM | #15 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-14-2004, 11:09 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
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Have I just had a dyslexia moment or have you sneakily changed the spelling?
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12-14-2004, 11:13 AM | #17 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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12-14-2004, 03:12 PM | #18 | |||
avocatus diaboli
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Nice points, everyone. Thank you.
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Okay. I have a strange twist to put on everything... And please don't kill me for it... Quote:
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It seems to me that everything that Maedhros did turned to Morgoth’s advantage. This could be attributed to the Oath, of course… But to me it seems that there could be another interpretation. The same argument could be made for Gwindor (which is good, since I’m making it. ). His first act upon being freed involves Turin killing his best friend. Then he leads Turin to Nargothrond, precipitating the kingdom’s destruction. I’m not saying that either purposefully served Morgoth. Hurin, after all, never willingly served Morgoth, but all the same fulfilled his purposes, unknowingly hastening the destruction of Gondolin and (one could argue) Doriath. Any merit in this idea, or can someone refute it completely?
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12-14-2004, 03:17 PM | #19 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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It was Thingol's fault that Doriath was destroyed, not Hurin's.
As for the other point's, the Oath of Feanor would not have harmed Morgoth if Maedhros had avaded capture, that was the oath working against the Son's purpose. And with Gwindor, Beleg being killed was probably to do with Morgoth's curse upon Hurin's kin, as was the destuction of Nargothrond.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
12-14-2004, 03:25 PM | #20 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Quote:
[EDIT] Oh, and maybe the fall of Nargothrond had something to do with that idiot, Orodreth.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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