10-01-2008, 04:50 AM | #1 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Saruman'a actions in summer 3018
What has really happened between the three Istari (Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf) in summer 3018?
Let us look at Saruman's actions and motives closer. Gandalf had been fond of hobbits ever since the Long winter (2758-60), long before Bilbo has found the Ring. He didn't hide his interest from Saruman and Quote:
Then Saruman suddenly learns that the nazgul - all nine - have crossed the Anduin and are searching for "the Shire". How did he learn it? Most likely from Radagast - because how otherwise the Brown Wizard, who always stayed as far as possible from politics, got involved in this story? Radagast must have learned from his birds and beasts that his neighbours, the two nazgul of Dol Guldur, set forth, crossed the river, met the other seven and rode north together, asking questions. Radagast did what was his duty: he immediately went to inform Saruman - the head of his order. Here Saruman most likely put all the loose ends together: Gandalf is interested in the Shire and goes there a lot, the nazgul try to find the Shire, and there is hardly any other errand than the search for the One Ring that would make Sauron send all the Nine to wander across western lands. The last bit can be proven by Saruman's words to the Morgul-Lord: "It is not a land that you look for," he said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it."- UT) So, finally, before midsummer 3018, Saruman understands that the One is in the Shire, maybe in Gandalf's direct keeping, maybe in the keeping of one of the hobbits under Gandalf's supervision. Saruman's next move is to invite Gandalf to Orthanc, using the unsuspecting Radagast. Why? Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him. That's why he orders Radagast to tell Gandalf the news about the nazgul. Would the Grey wizard leave the Ring unprotected? But that was not what happened. Gandalf came alone without the Ring. And here Saruman's actions do not make much sense, IMO. He took Gandalf out of the picture, imprisoning him in Orthanc. But he did nothing about the Ring. Why didn't he ride like the wind to the Shire himself, to get there before the nazgul? Quote:
But it seems Saruman hadn't got enough guts for it. He did the silliest thing - removed Gandalf and left the Ring completely unprotected for the nazgul to take. Or, considering that Gandalf had means to transmit the news of danger to the Ringbearer, prior to going to Orthanc, he left the Ringbearer enough time to make his way to Rivendell, where the Ring would be beyond Saruman's grasp. What was it? Miscalculation? Cowardice? What do you think? Last edited by Gordis : 10-01-2008 at 02:19 PM. |
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10-01-2008, 10:06 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Perhaps Pippin, (or was it Merry?) was right in saying that Saruman didn't have a lot of guts for straightforward confrontation, preferring to use his pawns rather than risk himself (though what risk the Shire held for him seems minimal).
Or perhaps he was preoccupied with his war on Rohan. You make an excellent point, Gordis. He could have kept Gandalf by his side and never even let on he was a traitor. "Gandalf, the Nazgul are heading for the Shire. They think the Ring is there. If you know anything about it, we must go there now, together, and keep it from the enemy!" Or some such playing along. He fell due to his pride, obviously, but it still made little sense when you think about it as you've laid out.
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10-01-2008, 11:30 AM | #3 |
Elven Warrior
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Perhaps it's an internal-to-the-story author's error (akin to why Elrond's Council did not even consider, even if they would have ultimately rejected the idea, having the Eagles fly the Ring to Mt. Doom and drop it in)?
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10-01-2008, 01:14 PM | #4 | |
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Saruman keeping Gandalf out of things would make sense if he was doing some Ring hunting himself. He had been searching for it in the River Anduin for long enough ...
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10-01-2008, 01:39 PM | #5 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Yet the only thing Saruman did after capturing Gandalf was to send some spies to the Shire - one of them was the famous squint-eyed Southerner.
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Had Saruman gone to the Shire straight away, he would have had two months to search for the Ring and to bring it to Orthanc. Last edited by Gordis : 10-01-2008 at 01:45 PM. |
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10-01-2008, 02:41 PM | #6 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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I'm being purely speculative here, but could it be possible that Sarumann thought that the Nine would somehow not find their way to Frodo's house?
But that of course does not quite add up with what happened in Bree. Did not the Southerner assist the Nine? Pointing out the room where Frodo, Sam, Pippin and Merry lived for example. Myself, I can't square Sarumann's actions and words relating to the hunt for the Ring. Is there something we're missing or is it a glaring inconsistency?
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10-01-2008, 03:00 PM | #7 | |||
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10-01-2008, 03:42 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
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Maybe PJ was right and Saruman really was serving Mordor, not himself?
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10-01-2008, 03:57 PM | #9 | |
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So the Southerner was caught prior to Bree. Well that falls right into place with what I think, and that was that Tolkien intended for Sarumann's character to want the ring for himself, not hand it to Sauron. But it's puzzling that Sarumann did less to obtain the ring. First things first, when did Sarumann know that the ring was the One? Anyone know?
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10-01-2008, 04:09 PM | #10 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I doubt Saruman left Orthanc very often at this stage, he seemed to prefer working through agents rather than doing any dirty job himself. (Typing that just brought up a rather funny mental image of Saruman standing to his skinny knees in the Anduin, with his robes tucked in his belt and a seeve in hand to dig out the One Ring from the sand...)
So maybe he didn't want to go himself into Shire, and while he had spies and business ties there, he may not have had any servant in the Shire that he dared to trust with handling the Ring and bringing it to Orthanc. And going himself may have been too risky. Saruman was pretty paranoid by now, thinking every member of the White Council had its own hidden agenda and was acting solely for their own betterment. He may not have dared going himself, without knowing what the others were up to. He may even have feared a trap for himself. Perhaps by detaining Gandalf he hoped he could force the others into the open and reveal their plans? If Gandalf was in league with others, and Gandalf disappeared, the others would have been forced to conduct any business in the Shire themselves or maybe search for Gandalf. Saruman may at that point have been trying to find out who Gandalf's associates were. I also think Saruman wanted to prevent at all costs that Sauron learned about the whereabouts of the Ring through him. If Sauron was watching, Saruman's sudden visit to a land where he hadn't been in a while may have attracted undue attention. Even if a personal visit could bring the Ring into Saruman's possession, he couldn't risk letting Sauron learn about it too quickly. I daresay Saruman desired to have time to study the Ring before claiming it and facing of the former owner. I also doubt Saruman would have been able to walk into Bags' End so easily. While Gandalf spoke in decent terms about him to Frodo, Saruman had no idea of knowing how he would be received. Nor do I think it very likely that wizardy types could get into Hobbiton and into Bags' End without neighbours knowing. Gandalf was a known character in the Shire, if sometimes considered a nuisance, Saruman was unknown.
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10-01-2008, 04:18 PM | #11 | |
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But it would have taken a very strong spell to change Saruman's own loyalty and make him serve Mordor rather than himself. I don't think any such spell was put on him. Not even through the Palantir. He was still trying to pursue his own interests.
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10-01-2008, 04:25 PM | #12 |
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I agree with that Varna, and it's a fair assessment Earniel, but it still leaves at least one question unanswered.
For all his uncertainties as to what Gandalf and Radaghast and others were up to, did he not realise that when the Nine were heading for the Shire that he had to act? Instead he decided to lock up Gandalf and let the whole search for the ring unfold without any influence by him whatsoever until after the Fellowship left Rivendell. Seems like a high risk to me or am I missing something..
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10-01-2008, 05:10 PM | #13 | ||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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No, imprisoning Gandy was a smart move. But it had to have a follow-up - Saruman had to go to the Shire either impersonating Gandalf (Saruman in TT was able to appear quite similar to Gandalf), or as Saruman the White, Gandalf's replacement. "I am sorry for bearing bad news, Frodo, but our dear friend Gandalf got eaten by wargs/captured by Sauron/drowned in the Anduin. I come in his stead, o worthy hobbit, to help you with your burden. The Nine are hunting for you. Trust me - I will take you to safety." Why, even Aragorn might have bought this story! Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 10-01-2008 at 05:14 PM. |
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10-01-2008, 05:55 PM | #14 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There is always the possibility that Saruman did act, did something other than build his army and taunt Gandalf. But we never learned what, only that it obviously didn't work. Quote:
But he did have some measure of time. The nazgul only got real close the evening when Frodo left Hobbiton, this was months after Gandalf's disappearance. Could it be (purely and wildely speculating here) that Saruman was planning something, but that he needed time? Time to forge and strengten all the relationships he had in the Shire? He didn't get Lotho in his pocket in the blink of an eye, even that took some time. Time to perhaps raise an army that would keep Sauron's eye off Saruman's other activities? It was in Saruman's interest to keep Frodo in the Shire as long as he could, where Saruman knew where he was, if his spy information was that accurate at the time. If Gandalf hadn't been captured, Frodo would have departed far earlier, and would have been far more difficult to catch in the wide wilderness. The nazgul themselves took quite a long time to land on Frodo's doorstep too. Would Saruman have invested some of his time to prevent them of finding him sooner? I don't think he for example sent out a few hobbits shouting 'I'm a Baggins' to lure the nazgul away from Hobbiton, but he did know the Shire better than the nazgul. So perhaps he spent more time keeping the nazgul away rather than advancing himself. Quote:
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10-01-2008, 06:06 PM | #15 |
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Possibly Saruman couldn't act quite independently as we all think. He seems to be both hiding some of his actions from Sauron and is also controlled by Sauron at least to some degree, having to speak to the dark lord, through the seeing stone.
Remember when Sauron tells Pippin to just say to Saruman that "this " (the ring) isn't for him. ? He couldn't risk leaving Orthanc himself without Sauron wanting to find out why. |
10-01-2008, 07:26 PM | #16 |
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One reason may be that Sarumann knew the Rangers were keeping an eye out on the area. Which leads to me a question which is sort of off-topic for this thread; where were all these Rangers in the miles between the Shire and Rivendell? Weren't there supposed to be more than Strider roaming the area? They certainly must have done a poor job of it by the looks of it.
In any case, the Red Book of Westmarch is not an all-telling account of what happened that summer and fall so there may be plans by Sarumann that failed but never saw the light of day from the POV of the 'good side'.
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10-01-2008, 08:23 PM | #17 |
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*sigh* The Eagles would have been spotted and the whole "destroy the Ring" gambit would have failed. As I have repeatedly posted, one troop of Uruks in the Sammath Naur would have been Middle-earth's undoing.
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10-01-2008, 09:22 PM | #18 |
Elven Warrior
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Saruman's actions are really not even worth further thought compared to Sauron's. At the point in time where he knew Frodo had the Ring, had he *literally* bent all his will and resources towards it, it would have been a short story instead of a novel. That is truly inexplicable to me.
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10-01-2008, 10:03 PM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
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In The Hunt for the Ring text C (Christopher Tolkien is inclined to think this version is the latest in order of composition) the Riders arrive at Orthanc the same day Gandalf escapes (see note 15 and compare Appendix B).
Saruman is then said to have believed that the Ring had gone and was already on its way to Rivendell, and at once he sent out many spies. He thought that he might have hindered the Riders rather than helped, and he knew of the Ranger-guard. It is noted here too that Saruman knew of the oracular dream-words and of Boromir's mission. Well, that's that version anyway. In general here, Tolkien himself is still in the process of finding out the details of Middle-earth. |
10-01-2008, 10:06 PM | #20 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Interesting. It's easy to forget just much detail we're looking into and that this history is basically the product of one man's mind.
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