Army sizes in M-E

[jabbott]

Is anyone else interested in trying to estimate the size of the forces involved in M-E battles, particularly the 1st Age?
There is scant evidence in The Silmarillion. The only useful parts I can find are the fact that Turgon leads an army of 10,000 to the Nirnaeth, and earlier on that he took into Gondolin one third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's following, plus a larger number of Sindar.

Assuming a total force in Gondolin of 12,000 (allowing Turgon to leave a small garrison behind), maybe 5,000 were Noldor and 7,000 Sindar. If you also take 'Fingolfin's following' to mean the people of Fingolfin and his sons, that would suggest that Fingolfin would command about 10,000 Noldor in Hithlum. The Sons of Feanor between them would probably command about the same number, plus perhaps 5,000 for Finrod and his brothers (?).

So how many orcs would Morgoth have thrown at them in the Dagor Bragollach? Having played around with some numbers, I think about 200,000, allowing for heavy losses but enough left to breed up again to overwhelm Fingon etc. at the Nirneath 22 years later. This ties up quite neatly with the size of the largest armies in actual ancient history.
Of course, if by 'Fingolfin's following' you include Finrod and his brothers, the numbers all drop quite a bit.

You can probably tell I am interested in military history and trying to glean as many facts as possible to be able to wargame M-E battles.

Jonathan

[Findegil]

I think you are right in taking the "a third of Fingolfins host" as you did. It would be strange to me when all others then Feanorians were meant.

I would suggest a higher garrison in Gondolin. But it is to be considered that Gondolin had have a long peace an folk may have multiplied so it might be right that Fingolfin comanded 10.000 Noldorin warrior in the Dagor Aglareb and the Dagor Bargolach. But to his force their were added some Greyelves. would suggest about 5.000, since Mithrim was not so much peopled by northren Sindar as was Neverast.

Assuming that the fleet of the Teleri was not able to bring the host of the Noldor over sea with two shippings (see Maedhros question whom they should bring over first), I would think the Feanorians were less than a third of all the Noldor maybe a quater.
Finrods following I would estimate about 10.000 Noldor warrior, but thats assumed during the flight from Valinor. They were diminished during all the battles. In additon Finrod gianed some Sindarin followers in Dorthonion and a greater heap in West-Beleriand. I would think that during the first years Finrod could comand 20.000 over all to his banner but since he was far from the war he never did so. And since his people had to bear the greatest part of the attack during all the battles, I would assume that only 10.000 were left after Dagor Bargolach.
Thats about 35.000 Noldor warrior coming over the ice. and I think that the Feanorians had about 12.000 warriors or less of noldorin origing. There Sindarin following was small would think not more than 2.000 or even less.

But all these numbers are before even the Dagor Aglareb.

It's just my oppinion. Don't count on it.
Findegil

[jabbott]

Findegil,

I had forgotten Meadhros's comments but looking back at my notes I had assumed that Fingolfin lead twice as many people over the ice as Feanor had brought in ships. Good point.
I am assuming that the Sindar population of Hithlum was very low and haven't assumed any in Fingolfin's forces, but you could be right. I have also assumed no Sindar followed the Sons of Feanor (would they even want them?).
I am also assuming very little increase in Noldor populations after they reach M-E, they seem to have children at an early age and then not bother afterwards (an interesting point in itself) so the actual year on year increase is very low. To the Eldar, Men must have seemed like rabbits.
I am not sure about Finrod bearing the brunt of battles - certainly involved in the Bragollach, bit overall I would say Fingolfin/Fingon bore the worst of it.
But what about the Edain? Tolkien gives no numbers at all that I am aware of , but my guess is (for warriors) House of Hador: 8,000; House of Beor: 5,000; House of Haleth: 3,000: all before the Bragollach. Given that the total populations include children and the elderly, this equates to about an equal total population to the Noldor.

Jonathan

[Findegil]

For Finrod taking the grates damage in the Battles: Well, I consider him as the overlord of all the Finarfin-folk in Beleriand. And his brethern Angrod and Aegnor were stationed in Dorthonion which was open to the north. So they were atacked in the Dagor Aglareb by the mian force of Morgoth. In the Dagor Bargolach Dorthonion was lost for the Eldar and Finrod himself trapped an rescued only in the last moment. But in the Bargolach the Feanorians had also great losses.

The Population of Mankind his hard to determine. Since the Hardorins lived in the same place as had done the People of Fingon I would assume they could be so much more than 5000 warriors. Maybe 7000?
I can't belive in 3000 familys living in and from the wood of Brethil and same goes for your number for the Beorians.

Regards
Findegil