Iraq II

[Nurvingiel]

There was a thread about the war in Iraq, found here, but it was closed due to some less than civil comments. I believe this issue is still more than relevant, and hope we can continue talking about it with respect to those who may disagree with our opinions.

Anything to do specifically with Hussein's capture should go in that specific thread here.

Now that they have reached the rebuilding stage, how do you feel about the war in Iraq?

Does the end justify the means?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Now that they have reached the rebuilding stage, how do you feel about the war in Iraq?

Does the end justify the means?

Well you and everyone else knows my opinion. Yes - the means justified the end. It was something that should have been done during the first Gulf War. Hussein dipped people in acid baths while the world watched.

I also feel that the overthrow of Hussein and the rebuilding of Iraq is the key piece to bring about democracy in the Middle East. On one side of Iran, will hopefully be democratic, vibrant Iraq and on the other, a democratic and vibrant Afganistan. I'm not saying that either of these will happen over night - it took 10 years to rebuild Germany and japan and establish functioning governments there - but this is a first step. And a much better step than sitting on one's hands all day debating endlessly and passing resolution after resolution.

Only democracy and freedom in the Middle East will bring about the ultimate end to terrorism.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Only democracy and freedom in the Middle East will bring about the ultimate end to terrorism.

Terrorism will always exist as long as there are desperate, violent people in the world. However, if there was peace in the Middle east it would be much reduced.

For the entire Middle east to be at peace, Israel and Palestine would have to be too. That will take more than 10 (or whatever) years.

There is a purpose to debating. We shouldn't be hasty in planning a new government, and the Iraqi people should have the most input.

As a Japanese proverb says, "The day of decision is the day of action." But we should be careful in making the right decision.

We all know your opinion, but that doesn't mean you don't have valid contributions to make to the thread.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Terrorism will always exist as long as there are desperate, violent people in the world. However, if there was peace in the Middle east it would be much reduced.

They have to have some reason to live though too. Right now there is 30% unemployment rate in Saudi Arabia and it's just getting worse. Most work is performed by outsiders that are brought in. While Hussein lived - there would never be peace in the Middle East and then after he died Iraq would have went to one of his sons and they were much much worse.

For the entire Middle east to be at peace, Israel and Palestine would have to be too. That will take more than 10 (or whatever) years.

That doesn't mean nothing else should be done in other areas though. Yes - the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has to be stopped - but it has been worked on for decades and is continuing to be worked on. Hussein was supporting Palestinian terrorists anyway - so now we took out one of their funders.

There is a purpose to debating. We shouldn't be hasty in planning a new government, and the Iraqi people should have the most input.

Debating is one thing, our constitution was founded through debates, but endless resolutions with no follow through are completely pointless. That isn't debating - that's inept inaction.

[edit] To respond to your direct statement, since I made my statement in regards to the ineptitude of the UN. We aren't being hasty in this regard. There has been a slow establishment of the government in Iraq and the Iraqi Council has been doing things for months. Hussein will most likely be tried under the war court they just recently set up to handle this case, as well as others.

As a Japanese proverb says, "The day of decision is the day of action." But we should be careful in making the right decision.

I believe after 10 plus years, the time for decision had come and the RIGHT decision was finally taken. France and Germany just didn't want anything to occur in Iraq because they had billions in deals with Hussein.

We all know your opinion, but that doesn't mean you don't have valid contributions to make to the thread.

Thank you.

[Ruinel]

Oh, wow! Iraq II thread... I wonder how long it will take before this thread is closed too.

I can't wait for the US troops to be removed from Iraq and for Iraq to come under civilian, democratic rule. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They have to have some reason to live though too. Right now there is 30% unemployment rate in Saudi Arabia and it's just getting worse. Most work is performed by outsiders that are brought in. While Hussein lived - there would never be peace in the Middle East and then after he died Iraq would have went to one of his sons and they were much much worse.

His sons were at least as dreadful as him. That would have been terrible, I agree. Your mention of the unemplayment rate reminds me of the rebuilding of Iraq. I sincerely hope that Iraqi companies are given the contracts to build and run infrastructore over American or British comanies. Those that will manage and use infrastructure like highways and schools should be the ones who get to build it.

I believe after 10 plus years, the time for decision had come and the RIGHT decision was finally taken. France and Germany just didn't want anything to occur in Iraq because they had billions in deals with Hussein.

Well I don't know if that's true about Germany and France, but if they are, that's not the only reason to not support the war. Canada didn't have deals like that, for example.

LOL Ruinel

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
His sons were at least as dreadful as him. That would have been terrible, I agree. Your mention of the unemplayment rate reminds me of the rebuilding of Iraq. I sincerely hope that Iraqi companies are given the contracts to build and run infrastructore over American or British comanies. Those that will manage and use infrastructure like highways and schools should be the ones who get to build it.

There are no Iraqi companies that have the expretise. There will be Iraqi's hired, but right now - after 25+years of rule, there is NOTHING really left of Iraq. What Iraqi companies do you suggest rebuild the pipelines and build the schools and everything?

Well I don't know if that's true about Germany and France, but if they are, that's not the only reason to not support the war. Canada didn't have deals like that, for example.

Canada had their own reasons for not doing it, but canada at least didn't tell other countries who supported us to "shut up" like France did.

This is interesting though, the French news just ended and they covered the capture of Hussein for the entire broadcast. I find it rather funny though how they claim that Iraqis see it as a humiliating defeat for them and that there is no cheering in the streets of Baghdad.

[Dúnedain]

The Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi said it best in response to Saddam being captured:

"The weapon of mass destruction has been found."

I wish I had the rest of his quote, as he goes on, but I can't find it now

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
There are no Iraqi companies that have the expretise. There will be Iraqi's hired, but right now - after 25+years of rule, there is NOTHING really left of Iraq. What Iraqi companies do you suggest rebuild the pipelines and build the schools and everything?

Okay, that's a very good point. Maybe this will be a good opportunity for new companies. I don't think any country but Iraq should profit from their rebuilding. Incidentally, Canadian companies are excluded from having contracts in the rebuilding. Does this mean that only countries who supported the war can participate?
Unless you regard giving building contracts as spoils of war, this hardly seems fair.

[Ornelírë Mistë]

So Saddam Hussein was captured. This is a good thing.

But what will it change other than morale? Saddam had already been put out of power, so he had no influence anyway. Well, I take that back. But not a whole lot. We have captured and, I guess -disposed of- only a symbol. Of what, it is debatable...

But there are still problems in Iraq, this did not solve them. It is only the end of our search for him. To capture Saddam was not our entire purpose of entering Iraq. We must continue to rebuild Iraq.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Okay, that's a very good point. Maybe this will be a good opportunity for new companies. I don't think any country but Iraq should profit from their rebuilding. Incidentally, Canadian companies are excluded from having contracts in the rebuilding.

I knew you were - because you didn't support the US. The money that is paying these companies for the rebuilding of Iraq is the 10's of billions of US taxpayers money. We would rather have it go back into OUR companies than companies of countries that didn't support us.

Does this mean that only countries who supported the war can participate?
Unless you regard giving building contracts as spoils of war, this hardly seems fair.

With what I said above - how is it not fair? But this policy does not mean that Canadian countries or even French companies can't partiicipate - they just can not compete on the contracts themselves - they can however be hired as subcontractors.

[Ornelírë Mistë]

It make sense for those countries who have contributed to have companies in. BUT it would be best for Iraqis to have their own new companies. More easily said than done. This is their country, doesn't matter who disposed of their dictator. US brought this own itself, it can't expect to be financially rewarded.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rë Mistë
But what will it change other than morale? Saddam had already been put out of power, so he had no influence anyway. Well, I take that back. But not a whole lot. We have captured and, I guess -disposed of- only a symbol. Of what, it is debatable...

But now the Iraqi people have nothing to fear from him - which was VERY great. They don't have to be afraid he might come back or that we may just leave.

But there are still problems in Iraq, this did not solve them. It is only the end of our search for him. To capture Saddam was not our entire purpose of entering Iraq. We must continue to rebuild Iraq.

We have been and continue to do so. The electricty is continuing to get better, schools are going up, new textbooks for the schools, new jobs, there is actually a lot going on.

[Ornelírë Mistë]

He was out of power. He was nothing to be afraid of. And we still might leave, you never know what might happen. And even if we do stay there, it doesn't mean everything will eventually turn out well.

I do not doubt we have done a lot. But people have mentioned, in this thread or the Captured Saddam thread, that this was "the end." They didn't specify as to what it was the end of. I think the Iraqi people are the best to judge what is being done. And many things are not going smoothly. What is our general support by the Iraqi people? It would be difficult to know this. And also, many of the first battallion of the army have deserted due to no pay. Gangs have been implementing their own security at mosques.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with JD. Saddam would have tried to get back into power eventually if he was left alone. Now they don't need to worry.

Lucky they had a DNA sample on hand eh?

Edit: Also, Saddam loyalists are still a force to contend with.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rë Mistë
He was out of power. He was nothing to be afraid of. And we still might leave, you never know what might happen. And even if we do stay there, it doesn't mean everything will eventually turn out well.

It'll go better with us there than not there though. Yes - there will be more attacks, it's not just going to stop. But this is one less problem and resources that don't have to be expended. Now we can concentrate elsewhere.

...What is our general support by the Iraqi people? It would be difficult to know this. And also, many of the first battallion of the army have deserted due to no pay. Gangs have been implementing their own security at mosques.

The army did not abandon because of not being paid. They left because of the rigors of training and stuff. They were the highest paid employees in Iraq. We are raising the rate of pay to encourage them to join back though. This will also help because the other reason they left was because they were being threatened by people against us and our supporters. The capture of Hussein will hopefully help this problem out.

There are polls taken throughout Iraq. The majority still seem to support us - just want us to fix everything yesterday.

[hectorberlioz]

I totally agree with JD. if we had not been in iraq, saddam supporters might have suceeded in helping him back to power. he still had a lot of supporters.
and there are still more threats out there to deal with.
and we still have to find bin-laden.

[Insidious Rex]

Ok kiddies best behavior now.

I think we can all agree its a great thing that Suddam was finally captured. Although it makes me wonder why this kind of pin pointed face to face operation cant be used in Afghanistan where it seems like we kill half a dozen kids every time we try to focus on one possible terrorist in hiding. This has shown us its ALWAYS a good thing to be surgical and careful rather then blowing up whole neighborhoods when we are trying to focus on getting one man. And thank god we got him alive. It would have been a shame if we couldnt secure him alive for a number of reasons.

But before we start tacking up more MISSION ACCOMPLISHED signs here... lets project a bit and see what this will mean for all involved. Unfortunetly this leaves us with no real sound bite issue left for the american people to focus on. Weve won the war. Weve capture Saddam and killed his sons. Weve scoured the country for weapons of mass distruction and found none. So will the american people now grow even more impacient with the concept of us staying in Iraq and dealing with the steady tricle of car bombs and shootings? will there be a collective "why are our boys STILL over there" grumbling by March or April or so? Something to think about.

And related to that what about the Iraqy people? Will they think along the same lines? ok you blew up our country and freed us and now you have saddam ok so NOW you can REALLY get all the roads back into shape and get all our water and electricity going like you promised. And that will be done even faster now right? Will heightened expectations cause friction when next spring rolls around and there are still issues? The coalition has made sure to emphasize that there WILL continue to be further attacks and bombings which is a good thing because that covers them somewhat when these things continue. But how long will Iraqys be patient with these things?

Theres are simply questions to analyze not to be treated as a point of view so before you assume that dont. Can anyone else think what else this could mean long term for Iraq and all parties involved?

[hectorberlioz]

Irex's post
Weve scoured the country for weapons of mass distruction and found none. So will the american people now grow even more impacient with the concept of us staying in Iraq and dealing with the steady tricle of car bombs and shootings? will there be a collective "why are our boys STILL over there" grumbling by March or April or so? Something to think about.

well, finding if there really was weapons of mass destruction was one of the things they wanted from hussein.
i hope they're giving him a hard time...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I think we can all agree its a great thing that Suddam was finally captured. Although it makes me wonder why this kind of pin pointed face to face operation cant be used in Afghanistan where it seems like we kill half a dozen kids every time we try to focus on one possible terrorist in hiding. This has shown us its ALWAYS a good thing to be surgical and careful rather then blowing up whole neighborhoods when we are trying to focus on getting one man. And thank god we got him alive. It would have been a shame if we couldnt secure him alive for a number of reasons.

Surgical precision isn't always doable though. Supposedly there was a huge number of troops who went in there and it could have very possibly have been a huge fire fight like with Hussein's sons. I agree the children's deaths in Afganistan have been terrible, but we don't have all the information yet to make a judgement.

But before we start tacking up more MISSION ACCOMPLISHED signs here... lets project a bit and see what this will mean for all involved. Unfortunetly this leaves us with no real sound bite issue left for the american people to focus on. Weve won the war. Weve capture Saddam and killed his sons. Weve scoured the country for weapons of mass distruction and found none.

We have scoured the ENTIRE country of Iraq? Thats' news to me. Hussein buried whole fighter jets in the sand. There is no reason why he might not have buried 18 wheeler trucks in the sand that holds weapons. I Just don't think we can say no weapons will be found at this time. We have the top guy now, hopefully things will come to light. Maybe there really know weapons. The future of Iraq is the most important thing, and the future of the Middle East.

So will the american people now grow even more impacient with the concept of us staying in Iraq and dealing with the steady tricle of car bombs and shootings? will there be a collective "why are our boys STILL over there" grumbling by March or April or so? Something to think about.

Well - it doesn't matter if there is really. A leader should lead and not just rule by public opinion. We can NOT leave until Iraq is stabilized - regardless of public opinion. I agree it would be terrible if we just leave and I hope that the public remembers how important this is. We have repeatedly suffered from pulling out because of public opinion. We can not do this in Afganistan and we can not do this in Iraq.

And related to that what about the Iraqy people? Will they think along the same lines? ok you blew up our country and freed us and now you have saddam ok so NOW you can REALLY get all the roads back into shape and get all our water and electricity going like you promised. And that will be done even faster now right? Will heightened expectations cause friction when next spring rolls around and there are still issues? The coalition has made sure to emphasize that there WILL continue to be further attacks and bombings which is a good thing because that covers them somewhat when these things continue. But how long will Iraqys be patient with these things?

As long as the majority see progress, which I think they will start to see more of - they will be more happy. Or at least stay the way they are. The majority still support us. They don't want us to leave right now.

Theres are simply questions to analyze not to be treated as a point of view so before you assume that dont. Can anyone else think what else this could mean long term for Iraq and all parties involved?

I just think that everyone has to look at the ultimate goal - to bring democracy to the Middle East, through Afganistan and Iraq and to ultimately put an end to Middle Eastern terrorism by giving people a better way of life. The road will be hard - but we need to stay with it, regardless.