10-23-2007, 03:15 PM | #1 |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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Location: Heaven by the looks of it. Hell by the feel of it.
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Philosophy
Don´t know if this is a good idea, but let´s try... So in here we would discuss matters such as good and evil, God´s morale, knowledge... And I thought we´d start with good and evil. The purpose, as often in philosophy, is not to solve these things, but to discuss and debate just to stay in shape and get new views. So. Good and evil - why do they exist - or do they? As far as I´m concerned, I´ve began to doubt whether there actually are any opposite things - are they not just ideas of the ever - ordering human mind? For example, hot and cold. Cold doesn´t physically exist, it´s just lower warmth. So if something changes, is it a contrast to it´s former appearance? And surely there are things which don´t have an opposite thing - they have too many properties for that. How can you find something completely opposite to a brown branch, for instance? I believe this will be interesting. Post!
And feel free to make up debates, though it will be easier to do with one at a time. Thank you.
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Hers. Last edited by Noble Elf Lord : 10-23-2007 at 03:19 PM. |
10-23-2007, 03:30 PM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Noble Elf Lord,
This type of discussion has been on-going on the 'MOOT for years before my advent and since. Try the search feature on good, evil, philosophy, etc. You shall find much to contemplate. However, I will say that there is absolute good and He is knowable! Human reason is not so flawed as to not be able to participate in that knowledge though in will human nature has been so bent as not to be able to accomplish consistently the good or even to desire it.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-23-2007, 05:09 PM | #3 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Just read all my posts!
There are absolutely no absolutes!! Every observation of what we call reality is relative to the individual's point of view. Thankfully, for many, since humans are the only "intelligent" beings we know of, our relative perceptions are fairly close, which leads us towards the illusion of absolutes. But don't let that fool you. All that exists is purely what we define it to be, good and evil being an excellent example of that.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-25-2007, 10:46 AM | #4 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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Hers. |
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10-25-2007, 10:53 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-25-2007, 04:25 PM | #6 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Better to stick with what we can define, our perception-biased reality. For example, good and evil are always fun concepts to look at in an absolute way, but it's much more interesting to look at reality, where just about everything is only good or evil according to ones point of view.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-25-2007, 04:37 PM | #7 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-25-2007, 07:17 PM | #8 | |||
Elf Lord
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"You don't believe in me," observed the Ghost. "I don't." said Scrooge. "What evidence would you have of my reality, beyond that of your senses?" "I don't know," said Scrooge. "Why do you doubt your senses?" "Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!" If, as we agree, perception is imperfect, why would I limit myself to it? Quote:
Since I do believe that "good" and "evil" are not merely human constructs, but part of an ultimate reality that I may never understand, I know that other humans may err in defining them, as I do. But the fact that people try, even doomed to failure, is a point in our favor, and even a point in support of my theory. Believing in nothing but perception, you still try to be good. That's because reality is stronger than your errors. Like gravity.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-26-2007, 09:15 AM | #9 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Most people aren't completely amoral simply because they would be rejected by their own society if they were. The exceptions to this case tend to be the ones that are already effectively "rejected" (i.e. the poor and uneducated, who get very little from society in the first place, thus have less to lose by acting in purely their own self-interest), or the ones that have mental deficiencies. Most people are also less and less concerned about human societies that are further away or more alien to our own. A good example of this is the recent lead paint on Chinese toys thing. You see concerns left and right about our children being poisoned by these toys, but concerns about the people who actually make them (who probably get much more exposure and are often children as well) are few and far between. There is no absolute evil when it comes to children dying. How important that issue is to any of us is completely dependent upon how close to home it hits. And, in some cases, it can even become acceptable. For example, civilian deaths during war. While we never try to kill innocents, it is seen as an inevitable, and ultimately acceptable, consequence of what many define as necessary military action. By comparision, if something happened within our own coutry requiring military action, we'd be much more concerned about even a handful of civilian deaths, even if we thought that the military action was necessary. Absolutes are an illusion!
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-26-2007, 10:30 AM | #10 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-26-2007, 12:28 PM | #11 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*applauds Dickens* It was the best of gravy, it was the worst of gravy ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-26-2007, 12:46 PM | #12 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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But yes, rich and middle class folk can be "amoral" as well. While social standing has a large influence on behavior, so does upbringing and life experience. That's why it's all relative, because no ones life experience is the same. Quote:
Basically, people are beginning to realize that what happens in another part of the globe can and will effect their own well-being. This was hardly the case at all a few hundred years ago.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-26-2007, 02:02 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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I really don't know why you're so confused about this.
People, who are limited, can know everything about TV's, which are even more limited. People, who are limited, cannot know everything about reality, because it is less limited. that would be: TV< siscuz < Total knowledge of TV < reality or: TV < Total knowledge of TV < Maytag repair man < realityNow, I would say, generally: TV< any individual< total sum of human knowledge < reality and a lot of people would add: TV< any individual< total sum of human knowledge < reality < God True materialists might go for: siscuz < Really good TVbut I'd still say reality is gonna be further up the list. God is, definitionally, at the top, if included. Quote:
I'm not going into this whole "provincial folks of older times before the internet." Right now I'm laughing, but I could easily get mad about it, and I'm having too nice a day.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-26-2007, 02:03 PM | #14 |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-26-2007, 02:30 PM | #15 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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10-26-2007, 02:57 PM | #16 | ||
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-26-2007, 03:35 PM | #17 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-26-2007, 04:09 PM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
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Funny, you say that like you know what the truth is? you know, absolutely. By the way, I agree with you, Sister, Plato's Ideal Forms are the bomb! Also, might we take Rex's suggestion that we move this discussion to the proper forum? |
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10-26-2007, 04:43 PM | #19 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 10-26-2007 at 05:02 PM. |
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10-26-2007, 04:44 PM | #20 | |
Elf Lord
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You see, the problem with your argument is, you see "crime" or "evil" or whatever negative thing you want to look at, purely in terms of its social context, so you look for it there. If misbehavior is social, and social misbehavior is crime, and the evidence of crime is incarceration, then the only thing you need is evidence of incarceration. However, I live in a world where there are things that are illegal that don't worry me, and things that are legal that do, and reasons why someone who has been either illegal OR wicked might not go to jail for it. It's a complicated world. I believe, by the way, that one of the reasons it's a complicated world is that people use the government to reach social goals which are outside it's natural purview. But that's by the by. You may be able to prove that one class or other of persons is more likely to go to jail. You won't be able to use that to assess their morality, because I don't accept society as the final arbitor of that. If the entire world disagrees with me, well, that's their look-out. I'm an introvert.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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