Theoden: Possessed by Saruman?

[Elf Girl]

I noticed that in the movie, they seemed to think that Theoden was possesed by Saruman. I didn't like this, because it seemed to me that the point of this part of the book was about the power of the words and counsels of Grima over Theoden, and this treatment diminishes that and makes Wormtongue a pointless charectar. Any thoughts?

[samwise of the shire]

Actually EG I think that what Sarumand and Wormtongue had in mind was to have Wormtongue go to be Theodens advisor so that the "spirit" of Saruman would have easier access. So basically Wormtongue was hammering down Theodens "defenses" I guess. So technically Wormtongue succeded in his job...if only for awhile.
But I have to agree with you that scene wasn't nessecary or cool. Made Gandalf look like some exorcist or faith healer. But it got a good point across...Saruman is no longer stronger than Gandalf...he's loosing power...and so can no longer be the white. His robes carry that across too...they're stained and dingy and no longer seem as magnificant and grand as they were in FOTR. A cool transition I must say.
Cheers,
Sam

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I always thought that it was Theoden under the influence of Grima, who was in the employ of Saruman.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I always thought that it was Theoden under the influence of Grima, who was in the employ of Saruman.

That's true. In the movie they changed it.

[akutach]

From a movie-making standpoint it is difficult to capture the subtle essence of magic as it is applied by Tolkien. In the books, even the biggest bangs from Saruman are talked about as having some magic aspect, but almost never a wave of the staff and a big boom or lightning bolts or such. It is attributed to his craft and technology. That sort of subtlety wouldn't work on the screen since there needs to be some obvious magic to make him seem powerful.

In the books, Grima had acquired Saruman's talent for using his voice to influence. It is suspected by some in Rohan to be magic, but in the book Gandalf explains it to be a more simple and mundane tonal quality issue.

It would be impossible to make Saruman sound evil and ominous as part of his character identity and at the same time smooth and influential. Nobody in the audience would buy it, and then it would be confusing that all the good guys are falling for the obviously bad Saruman and Grima's suggestions.

In the movie Grima is still essential because he is from Rohan and as an advisor who presumably has Rohan's best interests in mind, helps to bridge the gap in Theoden's behvior from sensible to bewitched. He is, in essence, a spin doctor controlling Theodens attendants. Alternatively, he could be necessary to open up the conduit between Saruman and Theoden that helps him take control. Use your imagination here.

Personally, I like the more obvious magic of the movies, and I've always felt the wizards didn't seem so powerful in the books.

[Ërendil]

I thought it was clever the way they portrayed Saruman's control of Theoden, though I don't agree with it. I would have prefered it to have been more like the book, and Theoden under Grima's influences more to make Grima a much more evil character.

[Varda Oiolosseo]

Me too!
I think that the way it was done worked though and i thought it was good!
But keeping to the book would have been good to see!

[Ërendil]

It wouldn't have looked as impressive though it would have been more faithful to the book, but like I said earlier I would have prefered it that way.

[Sister Golden Hair]

What I don't understand is how did Saruman live inside Theoden's body. I am under the impression from the books that none of the Ainur could last long in a marred or dying body, but how did he stay in Theoden and still run Isengard, and order his armies and such?

[Lief Erikson]

Saruman didn't frequently speak through Theoden, and I can't really see his taking possession of Theoden in the way he did if Grima hadn't been there.

So Grima, with his words, gained a handle on Saruman's mind. Since he himself was simply a pawn of Saruman, that made Saruman have real control, not Grima. Grima was necessary as a tool, and the spell couldn't have been done without him and without Theoden relinquishing control to him first. But at the same time, the spell couldn't have been done without Saruman.

Just like in chess. A bishop might put the king in check, but it is the chess player that chose the move and is in real control. Meanwhile however, the bishop couldn't have moved by itself to put the enemy king in check.

Meanwhile, Saruman wasn't frequently using the control he had over Theoden. Saruman's spirit wasn't in Theoden, it was in Saruman's own body. What he had done was taken control over Theoden's spirit through Grima.

Sister Golden Hair, look at it this way: In chess, if you force the opposing king into a trap so that he cannot move, then he cannot make decisions for himself anymore. At the same time as he's in that place, you can move the rest of your pieces.

It was plain enough that Saruman wasn't always speaking through Theoden like he was in that scene. Theoden was reduced to servitude, so he had no choice but to move as Saruman directed him. When Saruman wasn't directing him, he was a silent, mumbling idiot. Saruman was a busy man, meanwhile, and speaking through Theoden wasn't high on his list of priorities when he had Grima there to do everything for him.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What I don't understand is how did Saruman live inside Theoden's body. I am under the impression from the books that none of the Ainur could last long in a marred or dying body, but how did he stay in Theoden and still run Isengard, and order his armies and such?

In my opinion it's just the flawed logic of PJ.

[WallRocker]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Grima... was in the employ of Saruman.

He was. I just got 'Unfinshed Tales for christmas' and it talks about that in the part about Frodo and WR. I'm sure almost everyone know that, but I love talking about this book. Also, I think the 'excorist' was pretty cool. It wasn't from the book, but I think it did show very well the power Sarumon had over Theoden.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Saruman didn't frequently speak through Theoden, and I can't really see his taking possession of Theoden in the way he did if Grima hadn't been there.

So Grima, with his words, gained a handle on Saruman's mind. Since he himself was simply a pawn of Saruman, that made Saruman have real control, not Grima. Grima was necessary as a tool, and the spell couldn't have been done without him and without Theoden relinquishing control to him first. But at the same time, the spell couldn't have been done without Saruman.

Just like in chess. A bishop might put the king in check, but it is the chess player that chose the move and is in real control. Meanwhile however, the bishop couldn't have moved by itself to put the enemy king in check.

Meanwhile, Saruman wasn't frequently using the control he had over Theoden. Saruman's spirit wasn't in Theoden, it was in Saruman's own body. What he had done was taken control over Theoden's spirit through Grima.

Sister Golden Hair, look at it this way: In chess, if you force the opposing king into a trap so that he cannot move, then he cannot make decisions for himself anymore. At the same time as he's in that place, you can move the rest of your pieces.

It was plain enough that Saruman wasn't always speaking through Theoden like he was in that scene. Theoden was reduced to servitude, so he had no choice but to move as Saruman directed him. When Saruman wasn't directing him, he was a silent, mumbling idiot. Saruman was a busy man, meanwhile, and speaking through Theoden wasn't high on his list of priorities when he had Grima there to do everything for him.

Thank you Lief. This makes a bit more sense to me.