The non-existing finger

[Nerdanel]

I'm not sure, maybe this should be on the movie-forum..

But to my question:

My littlebrother, who hasn't read LotR, asked me while watching RotK, if Sauron didn't have to have the Ring on his finger to get all the power? And in that case, how could an eye put a ring on a non-existing finger, if he would have taken the Ring back? I thought a long time, but didn't really come up with a good answer.

So what should I tell my brother?

[Falagar]

Tell your brother that Sauron never was an eye and that the eye in the movie is just a metaphor.

[Nerdanel]

Oh, thanks.. I read LotR quite a while ago..

[Elf Girl]

Yes. The 'eye of Sauron', while appearing in the books, is a metaphor. In the Third Age Sauron took the form of a tall man robed in black.

[azalea]

I just want to add that there is debate about whether the Eye was real or metaphorical, since I happen to think there was an actual Eye, the eye of Sauron, that Frodo saw in Galadriel's mirror, but not at all as it was portrayed in the movies. IOW, Sauron was in the shape of a man as was mentioned, but his eye was a physical thing, although mysterious in nature.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by azalea
I just want to add that there is debate about whether the Eye was real or metaphorical, since I happen to think there was an actual Eye, the eye of Sauron, that Frodo saw in Galadriel's mirror, but not at all as it was portrayed in the movies. IOW, Sauron was in the shape of a man as was mentioned, but his eye was a physical thing, although mysterious in nature.

I agree with your point. I too think there was an actual Eye. On the other hand, I kinda like the movies representation of it

[Almie]

If Sauron had got the Ring back, I think he would once again become so powerful that he could have a shape of a man once again (if he wanted).

The Eye was maybe metaphorical, or something one thought to be seeing when he/she looked at Sauron. I agree it's quite mysterious in nature.

[Falagar]

It may have been the PalantÃ*r Sauron used to look for things. Or it may have been Sauron's actual eye.

[Elf Girl]

From the Letters, Tolkien is discussing possible courses of action had the Ring not been destroyed:

The form that he took [at the end of the Third Age] was that of a man more than human stature, but not gigantic.

[Falagar]

Yes but that stature must have had an eye. Read several similar discussions lately and have seen that quote come up several times.

[samwiselvr2008]

Hmmm, I was wondering about that myself! I think that he was a human, but maybe he had something like the eye in the movie that could see everything, but Sauron had to see through it through something else. Or maybe the eye just ment that there were lots of servants working for him, that would tell him what was happening in different places, thus, he is all seeing. Like the person back at Bree who the hobbits suspected to be working for Sauron, would report back to him about what was happening in that area, and so on.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Falagar
Yes but that stature must have had an eye. Read several similar discussions lately and have seen that quote come up several times.

Yes. I suppose it's possible that his 'Man-form' had red eyes rather like the 'Eye of Sauron'. Hmm. I rather like that idea. A compromise, though I still think it's wholly metaphor.

[Thorin II]

Also, keep in mind that the line in the movie about Sauron not being able to take physical form does not appear in the book. Certainly, Sauron's physical form had an eye (probably two), but I understand the Eye of Sauron to be a metaphor for his attention.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Thorin II
keep in mind that the line in the movie about Sauron not being able to take physical form does not appear in the book.
____________________________

Well, it sort of does, but in a considerably different context and in much earlier times. You're right, I believe, that by the time of The War of the Ring he had again (for at least the third time) reembodied himself.

Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

(The above occurred, of course, at the end of the Last Alliance war, S. A. 3441).
The Silmarillion, p. 294, Houghton Mifflin, 1977.

It apparently took Sauron about 2,000+ years to reembody himself.
In LOTR Appendix B:
(T. A.) "2060 The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again."

Actually, I have/had the impression Sauron was still in the process of reembodying himself in the late Third Age, but I must have been misled as much as Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh (I doubt PJ has studied Sauron's history that much).

[matthew]

I agree the eye was a sort of metaphor. all the same, i think sauron didnt need to put on his finger to draw power from it. as soon as he had it back he could regain a physical shape.
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film

[Falagar]

Originally posted by matthew
I agree the eye was a sort of metaphor. all the same, i think sauron didnt need to put on his finger to draw power from it. as soon as he had it back he could regain a physical shape.
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film

Actually his eye (that looked at Frodo) was yellow (rimmed with fire). If it was his physical eye or something else we do not know, but I would guess his physical...

[Wayfarer]

Something else to note is that the Barad Dur was described as having some sort of red light at the top, that was seen to move around something like the beam from a lighthouse (or that's the impression I get). The 'eye of sauron' could have been some sort of magical or mechanical device that he used to augment his farseeing. It seems that he used the palintir for that purpose.

[Twista]

Originally posted by Falagar
It may have been the PalantÃ*r Sauron used to look for things. Or it may have been Sauron's actual eye.

Who has the seven Palantir's out of interest, i just cant think who else?

-Saurumon
-Denethor

Who else?

[Nurvingiel]

Sauron had at least one palantir, and some of them were lost.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by matthew
and i DONT think his incarnation had red eyes. someones been watching too much of pjs film

The Eye was yellow, 'rimmed with fire', I believe, but I always imagined it red. PJs eye was orange. (And if someone else wants to say no, it was red, please debate it in the movie forum, not here.) Please forgive my grievous error.