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02-07-2003, 03:10 PM | #1 | |||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
Some discussion points:
(1) Melkor was the first to be aware of the awakening of the Elves. Again I'm filled with astonishment of the Valar, who for the most part stayed in Valinor and did not discover the awakening of the Quendi, but let Melkor be aware of them first and thus enabled him to do his evil deeds against them. Shouldn't they have been at least as watchful as Melkor was? What do you think? (2) Quote:
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(6)The Vanyar were most loved by Manwë, and recieved song and poetry from him. Aulë was named Friend of the Noldor, and he teached them much lore of craft. The Teleri were most befriended by Ulmo, from whom they learned much about music and the flowing of all waters. If this diversement among the Elves was the design of Ilúvatar, what was his purpose? Any thoughts? And at last (7) Quote:
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02-07-2003, 03:21 PM | #2 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Additional readings for this chapter:
HoME 1, Book of Lost Tales 1: The coming of the Elves and the making of Kor. HoME 5, The lost Road: Quenta Silmarillion: 3(a) Of the coming of the Elves HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring: The later Quenta Silmarillion, I-3 Of the coming of the Elves And this is Ted Nasmith's vision of the Elves beneath the newly-wrought stars at lake Cuiviénen.
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02-07-2003, 04:37 PM | #3 | |||||||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re: The Silmarillion: Ch.3 Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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02-08-2003, 12:18 AM | #4 | ||||||
The Insufferable
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~Melkor was in Middle Earth, the Valar were in Valinor. Only Yavanna, Orome, Ulmo, and Manwe paid anny attention to th real world, and only yavanna and orome ever went there. Melkor not only lived in the place, he had servants everywhere. ~The Elves also awoke on the other side of the world from valinor. Obviously the place where they were least interested. ~Melkor was intent on dominating middle earth, and so was active everywhere. The valar had no idea when the elves would show up, and so weren't terribly vigilant. Quote:
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02-08-2003, 11:40 AM | #5 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Isn't the sea not only good, but also chaotic. Osse was almost seduced by Morgoth into seriving him-so it remains fearful and awesome, even if it also is symbolic of communication with divine.
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02-08-2003, 01:36 PM | #6 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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02-08-2003, 10:46 PM | #7 | |
The Tall
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From The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar Cuivienyarna
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Interesting to note that these three elves that first awoke were not the Elves chosen by Oromë as ambassadors. (In the case of Finwë, he chose his spouse M*riel in Valinorë, and Elwë spoused a Maia.) I wonder what the Eldest elves thought of that?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-08-2003, 11:21 PM | #8 | |||||||
The Tall
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Aulë was a friend of the Ñoldor but after the exile, he didn't do didly squat for them unlike Ulmo. Even Manwë send Torondor to rescue the first son of the first prince of the Ñoldor, the one who was so powerful that only his great grace could temper the strenght of his step. The Teleri are just Teleri, they just made their ships and that was their great acomplishment, with the exception of Lúthien.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. Last edited by Maedhros : 02-08-2003 at 11:27 PM. |
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02-09-2003, 05:21 AM | #9 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Where did the reckoning in twelves come from? Did I completely miss something? Quote:
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02-09-2003, 06:28 AM | #10 | |
The Insufferable
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02-09-2003, 08:14 AM | #11 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Very funny.
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02-09-2003, 08:39 AM | #12 |
Elven Warrior
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Regarding Melkor knowing the elves first:
I'm with Wayfarer on this one. I think that Melkor's domain was Middle Earth and he was vigilant over his lands. The Valar that came to M-E were more like absentee landlords, checking out their favorite haunts and the environment that they wrought. They would have had to meet the elves almost by chance. Regarding the wonder of Orome: As said before, the reality of the elves was far more astounding that he Valar could ever have imagined. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 'From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold.' ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like this quote alot. It reminds me of the phrase 'seeing through the eyes of a child'. The monsters of Melkor: I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but I'll give you my conjectures. Balrogs - corrupted Maiar Trolls - corrupted Ents Orcs - corrupted elves Wraith's flying steeds - corrupted eagles Wargs - corrupted wolves Should the elves have been left to their own devices? Like other posters, I think they were intended to stay in the realm of Middle-earth, but there wouldn't be much of a story then. I think that the Valar had some selfish motives, but they truly wanted to keep the Eldar protected. They were selfish in that they wanted to impart their wisdom and council on the elves, rather than leaving them to their own development. By keeping the elves under their wing, they protected them from evil. But it was inevitable that some of the elves would come to see this protection as a type of constraint and would seek independence. This rebellion was how I interpreted Mandros' "So it is doomed'. Pehaps this lesson was why the Valar distanced themselves from men. Why the Elves feared the sea: This was when they saw the seas for the first time, before the ocean became a conduit to the safety of Aman. The diversity of Eldar interest: I think that this is nothing more than Tolkien's fashion of cultural differences. It also lessens the chance of a 'super race' of elves. Each has their own forte thus bringing their expertise to the management of Middle-earth's diverse ecosystems - forests, coastlines, plains, mountains etc.
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02-09-2003, 11:12 AM | #13 | |
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-09-2003, 11:32 AM | #14 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Aaargh! Where are you, R*an? I can't be both of us here all the time....
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02-09-2003, 03:37 PM | #15 |
Long lost mooter
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I am not very learned in The Silmarillion, but here are my thoughts on some of the matters being discussed:
My personal feeling is that Eru was right, the Valar should have stayed in ME to keep Melkor in check. It makes sense that if Arda was wrought for the Children, that is where they were intended to live. It almost seems like a big mistake that the Valar had them come to Valinor. Instead, the Valar should have gone to dwell in Arda. This brings a question into my mind, why the elves that did not go to Valinor were the "lesser" elves (aside from the fact that those that did go learned from the Valar themselves, they were more blessed it seems, and did Eru intend for this to be the case?). So did Eru foresee this taking place? Did he know the elves would be led out of ME? Elvet's take on the matter reminded me of discussion elsewhere on Gandalf taking the one ring: it was speculated that the corruption of his power would be manifest in his oppression of all because of his ultimate decision-making being done "for their own good," rather than allowing them to govern themselves freely. (ugh, what a poorly written sentence. I hope you could get what I meant out of that). This reminds me of the Valar doing what they did because they felt they knew what was best, rather than allowing the elves to develop on their own with help given in the realm prepared for them. And I agree, the Valar seemed to see that the result of their actions was bad enough that by the time men came, they had learned their lesson in that respect, but I think they still should have given guidance and been involved, just to a lesser extent. The sea -- to me it makes sense that beings who had come from the earth would fear the sea out of inexperience. It is vast and they were made to live on land, so crossing a body of water that big would understandably have made them nervous to the point of "You ain't getting me over that!" Perhaps similar to people who feared air travel when airplanes were first used for commercial flight, and refused to fly. The three branches of the Eldar with their distinct specialties reminds me of the three kinds of hobbit. I too think JRRT liked diversity among "his peoples." Melkor's monsters -- what about the werewolves and vampires? And don't forget Ungoliant -- a corrupted Maia as well? Although I don't post much here, I read every post and have learned a lot. It really helps me to understand The Silmarillion better. Thanks for doing this! |
02-09-2003, 05:31 PM | #16 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Be aware, Eärniel is going on a ramble again....
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The only way out of the problem was to bring the Elves to Valinor. I think that at the time the Valar really thought of it as for the best. I got the impression that the Valar considered the eastern shores as 'lost' to Melkor and that any strife over his dominion would only lead to more damage, something the Valar wanted to avoid as much as possible. In that view, bringing the Elves to Valinor would be as saving them. It's difficult to determine which reason moved them the most: to save the Elves or to enjoy the Elves' company. Both played a role. The Valar wanted to preserve all they could. I wonder if that isn't a trait they passed on to the Elves. If I think of Galadriel I remember how she wanted to preserve the beauty of Lothlorien forever. It is in my eyes also a negative effect from moving the Elves to Valinor. While Valinor is eternally beautiful and undying, the mortal lands 'die' and are reborn each series of seasons. After their stay in Valinor it seemed as if there were but little Elves who could enjoy those constant changes of the world. Which is sad if those lands were indeed intended for the Elves in the first place. In a way it's tainting the gift. Quote:
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02-09-2003, 11:53 PM | #17 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Nyah!
OK, just to astonish everyone, I'm going to disagree with Artanis! I don't really see the Valar's primary problem as selfishness. I see it more as timidity, or "lack of estel (hope)", as Maedhros quoted. IOW, not trusting in Ilúvatar to take care of things as they step out and actively fight evil.
And re the sea - I can well imagine their fear! Picture awakening on dry land and only seeing small bodies of water or rivers, then coming over a hill one day and seeing .... THE SEA! Vast, tumultuous, stretching as far as you can see - it must have been quite a sight for them! Then maybe one or two of the bravest would venture out into the waves a bit, and end up with a mouthful of sand as they got knocked over! I've lived in California all of my life, within an hour of the Pacific Ocean, and the sights and sounds of the ocean still amaze me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-10-2003, 12:08 AM | #18 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Yeah but Tolkien says that all the Elves had a longing for the sea in their haerts. In some it slumbered.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
02-10-2003, 12:19 AM | #19 | ||||
The Tall
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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02-10-2003, 03:17 AM | #20 | ||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Maedhros, I would say Ilúvatar could not be wrong, simply because He is setting the standard of 'rightness'. If Ilúvatar could be wrong, it would imply a power even greater than Him. Quote:
azalea, I like your thoughts about how the Valar's actions would resemble Gandalf vielding the One Ring.
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