03-13-2002, 04:15 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
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Why did Glorfindel come back to life?
In the Silmarilion Glorfindel was killed by a balrog in near Gondolin. How could he be in Rivendel in LOTR?
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03-13-2002, 05:15 PM | #2 |
Head Hollara
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It's not clear whether or not they are the same. Tolkien reuses many names throughout Middle-Earth, such as Denethor and most of the Dwarven-lords. To my knowledge (or maybe just my opinion), they're different persons. This is probably just another facet of details where it's merely your opinion.
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03-13-2002, 05:50 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Actually Tolkien wrote an essay about it, it's published in Peoples of Middle-earth. As it turns out they are indeed the same person. Glorfindel died, his spirit went to Mandos, he was purged of all guilt and restored to his body in the Blessed Realm. He remained there and gained back the innocence of the unrebellious Eldar, before heading off to Middle-earth in the Year of Dread in the Second Age (1600) in order to aid Gil-Galad against Sauron.
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03-13-2002, 05:59 PM | #4 |
Head Hollara
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So that's why we keep you Ents around here... maybe I'll change my opinion after I read that. Thanks.
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"People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. |
03-13-2002, 06:16 PM | #5 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Of course what's mysterious is it seems the elves of rivendell did nothing for the last millennium of the third age.
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03-13-2002, 06:20 PM | #6 |
The Insufferable
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The short answer:
All elves come back to life. The real question is "Why did Glorfindel and Glorfindel alone return to Middle Earth"
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03-14-2002, 01:37 PM | #7 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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But again, we come to the question of whether a s**** of writing by JRR, or even an essay, can override the authority of the writings as published. Of course, Silmarillion was edited by Christopher, and didn't he admit somewhere (I'm not sure where) that the Glorfindel thingy was his own mistake?
I know there is a lot of interesting info in the additional collections of Tolkien's writings, but I look rather askance at them because he didn't integrate that material into his published writings (Silmarillion aside). Not in any way saying that one could not use those additional writings as sourcing, I just don't give greater credence to those collections. For all we know, those essays were written, perused, then tossed aside by Ronald. A lot of disjointed s****s of writings might confuse the issue. Again, I don't think the re-emergence of the reincarnated Glorfindel, or whether Glorfindel of LotR is the same as the Silmarillion Glorfindel, can be definitively resolved, neither through the writings published while Ronald was still alive and re-editing, nor through the post-mortem collections of his discarded and unincorporated works. [broken record removed from turntable]
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-14-2002, 01:41 PM | #8 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Just as an aside, dear Mooters, the previous post included no "expletives", the filter took out a very common word and replaced it with asterisks. The word used was a synonym to "shard, shred, remnant, small bit, torn part" and the filter thought it was a slightly unkind word with an "s" tacked on front.
Just in the interests of full disclosure......
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-14-2002, 08:15 PM | #9 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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ANd the Simarillion is heavily edited itself (re fall of doriath)
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" |
03-15-2002, 12:55 AM | #10 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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Quote:
Perhaps they were not integrated into the story because the refection did not come after they were published, maybe print concstraints, maybe he never thought that his books would warrant such discussion and he was just clearing things up for himself but in the end who knows? ( the shadow knows. mwahhaaa!!!) i guess BOTH shadows where meant in the above though you don't give greater credence, do you view them as equal or lesser In another most you mentioned HOB, LOTR, and the SIL as things you "accept" why the last?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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03-15-2002, 11:41 AM | #11 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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I except from accepting the final tome(s) as authoritative because, considering Ronald's editing and re-editing process, the writings contained in HoME did not receive the same level of revision as Hobbit or LotR. Silmarillion can also be considered as "less than totally authoritative" because, although Ronald edited and re-edited it throughout many years, it is still a compilation with the hand of Christopher inserted. So, LotR and Hobbit are primary authority, Silmarillion and a couple others secondary, and HoME tertiary. Writings by authors aside from Chris and Ron would be quaternary.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-16-2002, 10:20 AM | #12 |
Elf Lord
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now I didn't understand-Glorfindel and Glorfindel are different elves or the same elf?
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03-16-2002, 04:40 PM | #13 |
Hoplite Nomad
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It depends on what you accept
some people " who are EVEN good guys" like bropous " (afro-elf tenses waiting for the back lash) tend to give less credit to works that are not LOTR or HOB however, Jrrr tolkein DID write that it is ONE glorfindel
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
03-16-2002, 04:41 PM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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Borpous, if I take your view strictly, then the question is viod. Since only looking to the Texts published by JRRT himself only a few listener to The Fall of Gondolin in the Essay club of the university of Leeds in 1926 would know about Glorfindel of Gondolin. And I don't think anybody of them would even remember it.
I admit that your view can be taken. It is only The Silamrillion I am wondering about. What you say is, that it is better to take a text more or less heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien that in part he even considered now as failure than the sources out of which he worked. Regrads Findegil |
03-17-2002, 01:07 PM | #15 |
Elf Lord
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OK. I think I'll believe to my sister and you (afro elf and Findegil) if you said that there's just one Glorfindel.
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03-17-2002, 01:43 PM | #16 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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"What you say is, that it is better to take a text more or less heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien that in part he even considered now as failure than the sources out of which he worked."
Incorrect. I state exactly the converse, that the texts of Ronald take precedence over the work edited by Christopher from a nearly-completed original (Silmarillion), and that Silmarillion takes precedence over the History of Middle-Earth series because that series is more of a collection of (with exceptions) unfinished or discarded versions of what was covered in the LotR and Silmarillion (along with some other material). Also, I do not in any way see Christopher Tolkien as any stripe of "failure". He did fantastic work assembling a final version of silmarillion, and his hard and intense work in editing "HoME" cannot be overlooked. However, he is simply not John Roald Ruel.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-18-2002, 07:57 AM | #17 |
Elven Warrior
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i have always believed that there is one glorfindel because well actually there is no because it s just what i believe i dont think anyone lashed your back
i have to say in ther lord of the rings glor was a poncy bugger i think dying ruined his personality a little mind you being i guess being swapped for arwen will do that to some guys
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03-18-2002, 08:40 AM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
Only to make that point clear: I didn't say that I think Christopher Tolkien made mistakes. I quoted loosely what he himself said in The History of Middle-Earth volume 11 The War of the Jewels in the chapter about the Fall of Doriath. I hope this Time I made my point clearer than before. Findegil |
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03-18-2002, 11:16 AM | #19 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Yes, much clearer, but still not on the mark completely. Actually, in that quote, I observe that there were exceptions in HoME. And no, it does not mean I won't give HoME a chance, I just think if your're looking for a definitive answer, such as Glorfindel's possible reincarnation, if it can't be found in the primary source, you go to the secondary, if it ain't in the seondary, you go to the tertiary, so forth. It does not mean to totally discount HoME. I just think that Tolkien's editing/re-editing/re-editing process had not been applied to (most of) the material in HoME. It is this crucible process that makes one source any more "authoritative" than another.
HoME is still Tolkien, just different visions of his world from very esoteric focuspoints. Its usefulness is not in dispute, just questions as to whether it can be as reliable as, for say, Lord of the Rings in discerning the Master's final intent.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-18-2002, 02:25 PM | #20 |
Hoplite Nomad
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That was stated quite clearly
thanks
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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