The nine, in Saurons abcence

[Vidugavia]

After lurking for quite a while, I've decided to create a thread about a question I fear have no real answer in Tolkiens writings.

What did the nazgul do during and after Saurons defeat by the last alliance?

They first appeared around S.A. 2251. At Saurons fall they "go into the shadows". 1050 Sauron begins to take new form and 1300 the nazgul goes more or less public again and founds Angmar.

Does "go into the shadows" mean that they were rendered "empty and shapeless" like Gandalf hoped they were at the ford of Bruinen? If so, what happened to their rings when they were disembodied at Saurons fall? Did Elendil, Gil-galad & Co defeat and temporarily shatter any nazgul before fighting Sauron? As Saurons most powerful servants at least some of the nazgul must have fought the last alliance. Was their passing "into the shadows" exclusively a result of Saurons personal defeat or were they also temporarily "slain"? Did at least some of the nazgul loose their rings at the end of the second age?

How fast did they heal and regroup? Were they guided by Saurons all the time? Could they communicate with him before 1050?

So many questions that probably lacks answers but I encourage creative speculation.

[Valandil]

Vidugavia, Welcome to Entmoot!

Nice thread. I think once everyone wakes up, we'll get some good discussion on it. I'd contribute a little right now, but I need to get to bed.

We've even done a little bit of RP fanfic on the topic around here!

[Alcuin]

Amen to Valandil: welcome, Vidugavia, and good question.

Gordis has a highly evolved theory on this subject: Nazgûl are her especial, favorite topic.

[Noble Elf Lord]

On rings: I don't think they could lose them. The more propable explanation is that they were magically bound on their fingers, impossible to be removed. Other one I can think of is that once Sauron had them under his control - so much that if he told them to jump into Mt. Doom, they would - he ordered the Nine to NEVER remove them. So they'd be doomed to forever bear them, whether they were magically bound or not, with no way out of Sauron's dominion.

On "go into shadows": I think that they merely lost their form in the world of light. But alas, Sauron still alive, they could recover. Possibly because: While Sauron's power and life was bound on the One, the power of the Nine rings was rather bound on the Nine Nazgûl.

Those 9 Rings were certainly corrupted, but I don't believe they had a will of their own. Nazgûl cannot exist (as Nazgûl) without their Rings on hand, while Sauron can. IF the 9 Rings had been somehow destroyed/removed before the Nazgûl had worn them for long, I guess they had been almost normal, though weary people. Whereas Sauron was destroyed with the One.
Opinions?

[Gordis]

Thank you for directing me to this thread, Alcuin, but as long as I am far from home and away from my books, I can only rely on memory.

Wht you say is all very nice and logical, NEL, but unfortunately, it is contradicted by Tolkien's own writings.
At the time of the War or the Ring, the nazgul didn't wear their Rings, it was Sauron who held them (See Unfinished Tales, Hunt for the Ring). That was how he controlled the nazgul, without the Ruling Ring.

Nazgul in LOR wear no rings. That is why nazgul clothing is visible. That is why when nazgul wish to go around invisible, they have to remove their garments and go unclad. If they had their rings, they would have been invisible: clothes and all, much like Frodo wearing the Ring.

As for the original question, again the answer lies in UT, this time a note (was it No 21? or maybe 12?) to the "Disaster of the Gladden Fields". The Ringwraiths had retreated East with the remnants of orcs from Barad-Dur. I take it they were more or less hale and sound when they retreated into shadows - likely put on their Rings and went into the Shadow-world, becoming invisible.

The Nine rings they likely still had in their possession, so the fact that the One changed hands didn't effect them: they were always bound to the Nine rings and only secondarily to the One.

Likely they simply stayed somewhere in the East or South before TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar.

I hope that helps.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

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Likely they simply stayed somewhere in the East or South before TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar.
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Although some have speculated on a brief stay at Tharbad.

[Jon S.]

After the One's demise, the bearers of the Three lost their Ring-associated powers, right? So wouldn't the Nine rings also have lost their powers, and by extension, the Nazgul lost theirs? If so, the Nazgul would no longer have a way to sustain their spirits in this world and would be expected to essentially die, either on the spot or after concluding their now-resumed natural lifespan?

“Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.” [Silm: Rings (287)]

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

After the One's demise, the bearers of the Three lost their Ring-associated powers, right? So wouldn't the Nine rings also have lost their powers, and by extension, the Nazgul lost theirs? If so, the Nazgul would no longer have a way to sustain their spirits in this world and would be expected to essentially die, either on the spot or after concluding their now-resumed natural lifespan?[Silm: Rings (287)]

The remaining eight Nazgûl were consumed in the ruin of Orodruin, were they not?

…with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

Mmm… Black Rider barbeque.

Extra sauce, anyone?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think this thread's OP was talking about after the Last Alliance and before Sauron rose again to power toward the end of the Third Age.

[Jon S.]

By jove, you're right!

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I had the same question in mind, Alcuin. If they wore their rings while Sauron was impotent, and Sauron had to have their rings in hand to control them, how did he ever persuade them to return the rings to him?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I had the same question in mind, Alcuin. If they wore their rings while Sauron was impotent, and Sauron had to have their rings in hand to control them, how did he ever persuade them to return the rings to him?

I guess Sauron's methods of persuasion didn't vary that much -at least in the Third Age. He may have used exactly the same methods as with Thrain: kidnap - throw into a dungeon - take the ring

Edit: there was this thread about the question you ask:
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I guess Sauron's methods of persuasion didn't vary that much -at least in the Third Age. He may have used exactly the same methods as with Thrain: kidnap - throw into a dungeon - take the ring

Edit: there was this thread about the question you ask:
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

Gordis, I read your post "Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?", or more like article, and I subscribe to your first version of events, where Sauron is 'nazgulless' as well as 'ringless', whereby the Ringwraiths are free and can do as they want within the evil nature they adhere to. The sequence of events makes sense, it stays true to the inherent strength of the foundations of Barad Dur, it portays the Nine Ringwraiths as more or less independent actors in the years between Sauron's two reigns; of which the evidence shows that the Witch King certainly seemed independent, so why not the rest of them as well. Also I like the theory because it portays Sauron as a creature who needs to rebuild, slowly, painfully, with much patience; which is the kind of evil Sauron reprents, the creeping, silent type.

[Gordis]

Thanks, Coffeehouse!

I have re-read the thread and now I find that I like the third idea advanced by CAB best:
http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=85

The nazgul still wore their rings when Sauron lost his; they became independant and free, until Sauron collected their Rings.
Now I think CAB was right thinking that the Witch-King's ring was the last of the Nine Sauron collected and Sauron got it between 1975 and 1980. The nazgul in Minas Morgul were likely already ring-less.

[Vidugavia]

Thanks for all the answers, even the russian detour was somewhat interesting.

CAB:s ideas are really inspiring.
The reason for asking, apart from pure curiosity, is that I'm writing a rpg adventure set during the gondorian kinstrife where it would be nice to have a lost nazgul ring of power as a plot device.
Would it be possible that the witch king lost his ring during the war of the last alliance but reformed without it and rose to power in Angmar?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Yeah, a lost ring of power would most likely be Dwarven, not Elvish or Nazgul.

[Gordis]

A Dwarven Ring - one of the Seven - could have easily been acquired after the big battle where many Dwarves were slain: some on the Alliance side, some on Sauron's. Perhaps whole clans have been wiped out with no relative nearby to take the Ring from a dead Dwarf-Lord. A man could have found a slain dwarf with a now-visible Ring after the battle. He could have found bones of the dwarf centuries later as well, either at the Dagorlad - Dead Marches or near the ruins of Barad-Dur.

Tolkien used to play with the idea that Saruman's ring was one of the Seven, but later abandoned it. So some of the Seven could be unaccounted for.

A Dwarven ring, when used by a mortal, would hardly differ from a Nazgul's ring in its effects: it would render a mortal man invisible and later cause him to fade. (The Seven were unable to do so to a Dwarf - but that is explained solely by the tough nature of the Children of Aule). Much like the Nine, the Seven were made with Sauron's direct involvement using his know-how and "perverted". Then again, any Great Ring, any of the 20, is a danger to a mortal.

Also note that a random Third Age Man would likely know next to nothing about Rings.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

A Dwarven Ring - one of the Seven - could have easily been acquired after the big battle where many Dwarves were slain: some on the Alliance side, some on Sauron's. ... Tolkien used to play with the idea that Saruman's ring was one of the Seven, but later abandoned it. So some of the Seven could be unaccounted for.

In FotR, “The Shadow of the Past”, shortly after Gandalf recites the Ring-verse, he tells Frodo,

Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three [Sauron] has recovered, and the others the dragons consumed.

So at least four of the seven were “lost.” Gandalf says “the dragons consumed” them, but it is conceivable that he was mistaken: perhaps, without the One in his possession, not even Sauron could determine their fate.

It is amusing to consider the fate of a dragon that “consumed” one of the Great Rings. Presumably, nothing would happen: the ring would be destroyed by the dragon’s fire; but that’s the simplest (and probably correct) assessment. Imagine some big wyrm in the Withered Heath, eating a dwarf-lord, and just as he’s picking the last of the armor from between his fangs, – poof! – off to the wraith-world!

So he’d be one richer, stronger, more persuasive, invisible dragon! (Probably not: Gandalf later told Frodo in that same conversation that, “It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough…” (Maybe the last was Smaug?)) It's just a thought.

Originally Posted by Gordis

A Dwarven ring, when used by a mortal, would hardly differ from a Nazgul's ring in its effects: it would render a mortal man invisible and later cause him to fade. (The Seven were unable to do so to a Dwarf - but that is explained solely by the tough nature of the Children of Aule). Much like the Nine, the Seven were made with Sauron's direct involvement using his know-how and "perverted". Then again, any Great Ring, any of the 20, is a danger to a mortal.

Also note that a random Third Age Man would likely know next to nothing about Rings.

As for its effect on a Man who obtained one of the Seven, I wonder whether it would not be worse than the Nine. I assume that the Nine were the first of the Great Rings the Elven-smiths made; then the Seven, of which the last (and greatest) was supposedly given to the lord of Khazad-dûm by Celebrimbor himself; and finally the Three. Since all 19 rings were made by the Elves for themselves, and not for Men or Dwarves, we might consider whether the powers of the Seven were even more potent that those of the Nine, just as those of the Three were more potent than the Seven and the Nine, even if their purposes were of a different sort. Sauron had a hand in the construction of the Nine and the Seven, too: hence their (presumed) purposes of power or wealth, as Elrond (negatively) described in his recitation of the powers of the other Rings:

The Three … were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or dominion or hoarded wealth…

The implication is that the Seven and Nine were “weapons of war or conquest,” or gave their users “strength or dominion or hoarded wealth,” things attractive to Men and Dwarves, and quite in line with Sauron’s way of thinking.

It is quite possible, by the way, that outside the two branches of the House of Elendil, few Men knew anything about the Rings of Power. Boromir and Faramir as sons of the Steward of the House of Anárion were certainly familiar with the information, and perhaps Théoden was, too; but it could hardly have been widespread knowledge. Elrond’s speeches at the Council of Elrond would indicate that information about the other Rings was pretty tightly controlled. I wonder if even the Númenóreans knew about them during the War between the Elves and Sauron midway through the Second Age.

[Gordis]

Thank you, DPR!

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In FotR, “The Shadow of the Past”, shortly after Gandalf recites the Ring-verse, he tells Frodo, So at least four of the seven were “lost.” Gandalf says “the dragons consumed” them, but it is conceivable that he was mistaken: perhaps, without the One in his possession, not even Sauron could determine their fate.

Exactly. Thrain's Ring was taken by Sauron - Gandalf knew it. But how could Gandalf know about the fate of the other six of the Seven? He was not even interested in the Ring-lore before 2941... Most likely, the info came from Saruman, who was in for such knowledge for a long time.

But I believe Saruman could only learn that the Dwarven settlement XXX, whose lord likely had a Ring, had been destroyed by a dragon. Now - was the Ring lost? Was it destroyed by the dragon? Was it swallowed? Was it kept in the dragon's hoard in his lair? Had Sauron got it from the Dragon later? I don't see how any of these questions could be answered. The info: "three Sauron got, four are destroyed" was a guess at best - communicated to the White council in Saruman's persuasive voice, so they believed it without question.

However, Gandalf's estimation seems to be accurate, after all: the messenger from Mordor who came to Dain said: "Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever." So Sauron, indeed, had at least three of the Seven.

Therefore, I have another hypothesis. The Rings were somehow interconnected, so maybe with the loss of each Ring out of the 19, the wielders of the other Rings could feel it. Maybe all the Rings were losing some of their power with one of the 19 unmade, much like they lost ALL their power with the Ruling Ring unmade. Then the wielders of the Elven Rings could say with utmost surety: now there are only 15 rings + the One left in the world. But here we are writing fantasy, as there is little support for such an idea in Tolkien's work.

Also such an idea leads to a corollary: had Celebrimbor mastered enough guts to destroy all the 19 back in Eregion, then the One would have lost its power and Sauron would have been either destroyed or shorn of a large part of his power.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So he’d be one richer, stronger, more persuasive, invisible dragon!

Hardly a swallowed Ring would make a being invisible - it has to encircle a part of the body to produce this effect. To swallow it would be similar to keeping it in a pocket, IMO, - the wyrm would have vivid dreams of world domination - as long as the Ring is inside. And then ... but it depends on how far away from the Dragon's lair is his toilet...

Originally Posted by Alcuin

As for its effect on a Man who obtained one of the Seven, I wonder whether it would not be worse than the Nine.

Yes I agree. The Seven were stronger than the Nine and would reduce a Man to a shadow faster. Likely, they would give some extra benefits: to feel hidden gold or mithril or powers in craft - but for that they should be wielded properly, and I doubt an untrained Man could manage it.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I wonder if even the Númenóreans knew about [the Rings] during the War between the Elves and Sauron midway through the Second Age.

No, they didn't, IMO.

I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. -L #211

Ar-Pharazon knew nothing about the Rings, and he would be the one most interested in obtaining such information - a key to power and immortality he so desired. It stands to reason that there was nothing to learn about the Rings in the archives of Armenelos. Likely the Elves only told the truth to the Numenoreans after Sauron reappeared hale and sound in Mordor after the Downfall and attacked Gondor.

Isildur: "But how on Earth?"

Gil-Galad: "Uhm, sorry.. he has this Ring, you know..."

Isildur: "What Ring?"

Gil-Galad: "Ahem, it is a long story. In Eregion long ago... ... ..."

Isildur: "You, accursed hypocrites! So that's why the late King listened to Zigur so readily? That's why three of my noble ancestors suddenly turned all evil and transparent? Now THIS time I am not gonna fight Sauron alone to save your noble hindquarters, while you are busy singing your lays. Mobilize your pointy-eared loafers and join us, unless..."

[Vidugavia]

I think that the nazgul in some ways was permanently bent to Saurons will, even after he lost the ring. I like the idea with some kind of autonomy during the first half of the third age but when Sauron was strong enough he could just call them and they would follow. He didn't have to capture them, he just had to become strong enough to be their undisputed master again.

He then kept the nine himself because without the one ring he couldn't dominate any possible new owner in the same way he dominated the nazgul.

Any elf, man or wizard powerful enough to defeat a nazgul could cause great problems for Sauron if the victory included a ring of power.