|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
11-02-2004, 07:20 AM | #1 | ||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
LoTR Discussion Project: Book II Chapter 4: A journey in the dark
Summary:
The chapter starts with the Fellowship having to face a tough decision: to go through the Moria-mines or find another way. Not only would it help them to get further on their journey but it would also help to make the Fellowship drop off the radar after their open attempt of crossing the mountains. But before they have a chance to talk it through thoroughly, a new danger in the form of Wargs forces their decision. After a battle - and some pretty impressive action from Gandalf - they break up camp and move on. When they finally reach the Gate of Moria, they find the land curiously changed. Before the gates we get another glimpse of the enmity between Dwarves and Elves. And Sam has to turn his beloved Bill the pony loose. Poor Sam! The Gate itself proved to be another obstacle, but Gandalf manages. (Is there anything wizards can’t do?) And again, before they have a good chance to discuss whether they still want to go through the Mines, another danger, this time emerging from the lake, drives them forth and locks them inside the mountain. With the way out barred the Fellowship is left with no option other than brave the darkness of Moria. Gimli was probably the only one who wasn’t sorry for that. His obvious eagerness to enter Moria throughout the chapter is quite endearing. The road ahead of them was not without danger, with fissures, cracks and pitfalls making their path a difficult one. Sam misses both rope and poor Bill. And after the infamous incident with the Took, the well and the stone, the old Dwarf-home doesn’t seem to be as quiet as it had seemed. But Moria proves it can be both a dreadful and a wonderful place after they reach the large hall. And we get a glimpse of what Moria had been in its golden age through Gimli’s marvellous song, which goes to show that in each of these small grumpy men, there’s a poet waiting to get out. The chapter ends on a bit of a cliffhanger when the Fellowship discovers the tomb of Balin. Eärniel’s further ramblings: An interesting tidbit: When the Fellowship is considering whether to go on or return to Rivendell, Gandalf says: “ The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.” It not only gives the indication that the Ringwraiths draw strenght either from the One Ring or from Sauron himself. And considering the already terrifying effect the Ringwraith’s scream had and the personal power the Witch King possessed, it’s nigh mindboggling how frightening they could have been. The fight with the Wargs is one of those often-forgotten moments in LoTR that I’m rather fond of (and one of the reasons I wanted this chapter). It has such nice sentences: Quote:
Quote:
And I nearly forgot this one: Quote:
1) Gandalf states he had considered the possibility of passing through Moria already in the beginning. I wonder whether this would have influenced the addition of Gimli to the Fellowship. Would Gandalf have specifically wanted a Dwarf to join the Fellowship because of Dwarves’ innate skills in mines and not just to represent all the Free People of Middle-earth? 2) In the morning after the wolf-attack the narration goes: Quote:
3) The Watcher in the Water forcefully closes the Gatedoors of Moria when its plan to grab Frodo failed. Would it have been under Sauron’s command or perhaps under that of the Balrog? Is it a coincidence that-since it failed to get Frodo- it therefore locked up the entire Fellowship in the Mines? And just how intelligent do you think the Watcher is? 4) Frodo finds out in the mines that his night-sight has improved and ascribes it to the wound he received from the Ringwraiths. He also think something might be following them. We later learn what it was, but what did you think it was, the first time you read LoTR? Do you still remember? My first time around I thought it had merely been Frodo’s imagination. Some art-work: And lastly, some beautiful art-work corresponding to this chapter: The Gate of Moria Before the Gate of Moria Within the Mines There, I’m done rambling now, it’s my Entish nature I fear. Hoom. But you can all wake up and start the discussion. Sorry to have kept you waiting.
__________________
We are not things. |
||||
11-02-2004, 07:35 AM | #2 | ||||
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
excellent Summary and Introduction
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
11-02-2004, 11:11 AM | #3 |
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Great intro (and artwork), Earniel!
I'll post my thoughts later... |
11-03-2004, 01:27 AM | #4 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the pages of a book
Posts: 1,417
|
Ok, here we go:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
11-03-2004, 05:24 AM | #5 | ||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Great intro Eärniel!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
||||
11-03-2004, 01:00 PM | #6 | ||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,651
|
Great intro Eärniel!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
||||
11-03-2004, 11:32 PM | #7 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Nice summory, Earniel!
And also a very good idea to include such visual elements as paintings of Alan Lee and Ted Nasmith. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If the whole quest supposed to be secret, what kind of the “vital importance” is in representation of the free folk in the midst of deserted places? A symbolic meaning for WHOM? If Earendil went to the West as a speaker for Elves and Men, with WHOM this “representatives” supposed to speak, if the original aim was to go as unnoticed as possible straight to Mordor? With Sauron? They were the representatives, all right, but their role was different than a nonsensical symbolism. The whole issue of the Fellowship came up because of the fast traveling news. If Elrond says that he did not summon them, then all representatives from other free folk unexpectedly turned up just in the most inconvenient moment. And they already has been informed that the Ring is not just a custom jewelry ( Denetor knew and the Dwarves also , and I don't think that Elrond kept Legolas, man of his kindred, it the dark about the ring). The ring couldn't be kept in secrecy - too many people knew about it. But such matter pose a dilemma: the Dwarves, the Elves, and especially the Men can’t be allowed to get close to the Ring. Fight would begin at once! So Elrond was compelled to include an observers from other races, knowing that they were biased against each other, to insure that the Ring stays in the hobbit’s hands. Quote:
Lastily, in the previous discussions about Moria I mentioned that orcs of the Moria has been living by different rules than orcs of Mordor. The description of Balin’s tomb gives a quite interesting picture: in the ravaged despoiled place ”The light of the shaft fell directly on a table in the middle of the room: a single oblong block, about two feet high, upon which was laid a great slab of white stone…On the slab runes was deeply graven…” Notice that it’s not broken by hammer’s blows, not defaced with scrapes, mud or demeaning symbols. Actually, it only lacks of fresh flowers... This interesting tidbit, pointing that this Moria’s dwellers had some value and at least a respect for the dead. |
||||
11-04-2004, 04:27 AM | #8 | |||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|||
11-04-2004, 05:26 AM | #9 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
Quote:
I loved Gimli's song too. It gives a rare glimpse of the splendour and might of Khazad-Dum during its heydays. It also points to ancient history that preceded the Coming of Men. It shows just how ancient the Dwarven race would have been.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
|
11-04-2004, 06:31 AM | #10 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
|
|
11-04-2004, 12:14 PM | #11 | |||||||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|||||||
11-04-2004, 01:45 PM | #12 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
|
11-09-2004, 01:51 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
No ordinary wolves
Apart from the fireworks, the fight with the wolves is the first time we get to see Gandalf's "magic" at first hand and in earnest. What were your impressions of this first time you read it?
We also have disappearing wolf bodies. What's going with that? Where did they go? What kind of creature do you think they are? |
11-10-2004, 01:13 AM | #14 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
Great question....well the first time I read it, I immediately thought of the wargs in The Hobbit and the battle after Bilbo's escape. Structurally there is a lot of similarity there. The bodies thing I've never been quite able to sus out. |
|
11-10-2004, 04:04 AM | #15 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|
11-10-2004, 04:48 AM | #16 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
I haven't got the book to hand but i think that the Wolves were said to be just phantoms, created by Saruman.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
11-10-2004, 06:06 AM | #17 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Durin, I always had that idea as well - that Saruman was just playing silly buggers with the fellowship.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
11-10-2004, 06:25 AM | #18 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 221
|
Quote:
I'd probably use this theory to explain the fact that Saruman was able to create these phantoms in the likeness of wolves. Note how Luthien and Finrod are able to disguise themselves in the forms of werewolves and orcs respectively.
__________________
Durin the Sleepless! |
|
11-10-2004, 01:22 PM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 369
|
Quote:
On the other hand, Legolas recovers all his arrows, save one. HMM. |
|
11-10-2004, 05:30 PM | #20 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Howevere I never (and still don't) attributed the Warg-attack to Saruman's scheming. Especially not since Gandalf called the Wargleader that appeared the first time "Hound of Sauron", who in his older days was the lord of Werewolves, if I'm not mistaken. Hence I thought these Wargs were a sort of werewolves and were sent out by Sauron to harry people and keep an eye out for the Ring.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Lord of the Rings discussion project | azalea | LOTR Discussion Project | 460 | 01-20-2008 11:35 AM |
Book IV, ch. 7&8: The Journey to the Crossroads and The Stairs of Cirith Ungol | Elanor the Fair | LOTR Discussion Project | 10 | 11-06-2005 05:44 PM |
The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past | jerseydevil | LOTR Discussion Project | 57 | 04-07-2005 11:37 AM |
The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 1, A Long-expected Party | cassiopeia | LOTR Discussion Project | 69 | 01-27-2005 05:28 PM |
The Silmarillion Discussion Project. | Sister Golden Hair | The Silmarillion | 3 | 11-15-2002 09:37 PM |