Faith and Fantasy

[Gwaimir Windgem]

An interesting article on Tolkien's faith and works here.

[Ninquelote]

I never really thought of Lord of The Rings as a Christian thing. I dunno, it just kind of ruins it for me on some level, as a strong believer in people rather than God.

Then again, with all this war, my faith has sort of been corrupted.

Anyway, back to Tolkien. It never really struck me as anything Christian because it seems to be a faith all in itself. Tolkienism. Oh yeah.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

A Elbereth! Gilthoniel,
Silivren penna miriel,
O menel aglar ele...

Erm, what on earth are you taking about?

[Laurus Nobilis]

Interesting article! Thanks for the link.

Though he rightly insisted The Lord of the Rings is not an allegorical work, the fact is that Tolkien thought, imagined, and wrote as a Catholic, and his work bears the clear signs of his faith, as he fully intended it should.

That's not surprising- even unconsciously, one writes what one believes. Though there aren't clear signs of Christianity in LotR, the moral is the same.
I hadn't noticed a lot of the details mentioned in the article, though, like Galadriel's Marian figure. That was really interesting. What I *had* caught was the underlying theme of hope.

[Elf Girl]

I agree with Gwaimir.

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes:

Author Joseph Pearce, Tolkien: Man and Myth, said no one should accuse LOTR of being non-Christian or pagan until he has read the first 20 pages of The Silmarillion

[Ninquelote]

Well, seeing as I have never read the bible (and really found no need to do so), I'm not sure. However, I know that Tolkien always insisted that the Ring represented The Machine; something that takes away your free will. Sauron, maybe, could have been the devil and such, but since the only opposite of machine is nature, and if machine is evil, then nature is good, there is a pagan flair to it.
I don't know, maybe my logic is askew.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, Morgoth is the devil.

And also actually, Tolkien always insisted that his stories were not allegorical.

[Ninquelote]

Books can be interpreted in many ways.

[markedel]

The ring is machine and is evil-but nothing is inherantly evil, just perverted. Even in LOTR Gandalf says that Sauron was good at the beginning, for that matter so was Morgoth.

[Ninquelote]

Melkor first created discord in the Themes, I think he was evil from the beginning. Sure, he was created with the rest of the Ainur, but each got a different part of Illuvatar's mind.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, I don't think Melkor was evil from the beginning. He was similar to Aule, but his pride overcame him.

[Ninquelote]

Ach, stop contradicting me.

You owe me! I gave you LuDR and The One Milk!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

True, that, you did.

But still, there are many books on the matter. Also, the Letters of Tolkien are a stupendous read; provide great insight into the life of Tolkien and his works, including the Christianity of them. Positively wonderful for those of like faith, and no doubt a great read for those who don't (you can just skip the parts about his faith )

[englishnerd]

His letters are an awesome read, GW, and very entertaining. Interesting though...My impression of him is that his faith is pretty much inseperable from his writing and life. I guess now that I think of it, there are specific parts that have more to do with his spirituality. Doesn't he have a great sense of humor?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with you; someone said about Tolkien that when faith is a central part of one's life, one need not write about it, it shines through on every page. But I meant the more faith-based parts. Indeed he does. I love Britsh humour.

[Anglorfin]

I actually did an English paper on this whole idea of faith and Tolkien. It had a lot to do with The Silmarillion as a historical and legendary work.

There are many different aspects of religion and folk-lore in Tolkien's works. I dealt mainly with The Silmarillion because here we are first introduced to the Vala as the "Powers of the World." It seems that the external structure of Tolkien's "gods" resemble more closely the gods of the Greeks, Romans, or the Norsemen. In creating this world of his, Tolkien had to explore every aspect of a person's life, including belief and where or who they recieve their guidance from. Tolkien's form of a higher being was the Vala or Maia.

This is a very abridged version of about two pages I wrote about the connection to Polytheistic cultures. More stuff included the comparison of Men's "gift" with the Christian idea of faithfully accepting mortality as not the end.

The point is that whether or not Tolkien intentionally wrote in allegory, he still needed to create some similarities between our world and his, so that people would better understand it. In this way he created more of a sense of realism. I forget where my actual essay is but if anybody is interested I will try and find it.

[Bombadillo]

I didn't read the article, because I didn't read all the books yet either and so I listened to the warning. But I heard that Tolkien was so against homosexuality and incest that he killed off two gay and incestuous characters.

All while on the topic of 'Tolkien and faith,' I've made an observation: Tolkien is the fantasy god.

[azalea]

I've never heard of any gay characters in Tolkien, but yes, in The Silmarillion there are two characters who have an incestuous relationship w/out knowing they are related, and end up killing themselves. There is a thread about it in the Silmarillion forum.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Anglorfin, you forgot to mention the main high being, Eru, or God, as Tolkien himself often calls him. Also the Valar were not really worshipped, but I think rather a kind of Christian approach to pagan pantheions.

Their names being Turin and Nienor.