05-26-2005, 11:47 AM | #1 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Sorcerors of the line of Elros
Hello, mooters!
It seems I have got a good idea. Well, maybe not THAT good, but let us see! (at least Olmer and Gordis both thought it were good, or so I understood...) I think that ALL the HUMAN sorcerors and/or prophets that are ever mentioned by Tolkien BELONG to the LINE OF ELROS. Or are quite likely to belong to it. That line has elven blood and more important MAIA blood (from Melian). I propose we do like that: let's make the complete list of persons (MEN AND WOMAN -not 100% elves) that were ever suspected of paranormal abilities and then check them one by one. So here goes: Luthien - very powerful sorceress! Dior??? Elwing -sorceress Elrond - sorceror - yes. Prophet for sure! Elros -??? Tar - Aldarion's father (UT) prophet yes. Other Kings of Numenor??? Witch-King - Sorceror YES, prophet yes?(predicted Grima's fate in UT) Tar Palantir - prophet YES Elendil ?? Anarion ?? Isildur - Sorceror YES! (ask the poor people of the Mountains) Prophet - yes? Beruthiel - Was she of the Line of Elros? - SORCERESS! Malbeth the Seer (could be Arvedui's relative) sorceror ? Prophet - YES! Gilraen's mother (a descendant of Valandil) Prophet - yes Gilraen's father - as well Aragorn - prophet And, of course, "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer" Now help me, please: I must have forgotten a lot of guys! Any ideas? |
05-26-2005, 03:04 PM | #2 | |
Enting
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Quote:
Beorn (“a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician”—The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien no. 144) The Drúedain (“they had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers”—‘The Drúedain’, Unfinished Tales) Edit—this thread would have been perfect for the Middle Earth [sic] forum... Last edited by Maerbenn : 05-26-2005 at 03:31 PM. |
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05-26-2005, 05:17 PM | #3 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Interesting thoughts CS!
Beruthiel may have been a descendent of Herumor or Fuinur and as they were Numenorean Lords they probably were of Elros's line. Actually she must have been of royal blood, unles how could the King Tarannon have married her? Quote:
The druedain were able to sit still for a very long time and sense danger (vaguely as animals do), but was this acually MAGIC? |
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05-27-2005, 12:23 AM | #4 |
AngAdan
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I noted in a SIL thread that most Human prophets seemd to be descended from the Half-elven or were closely associated with the Noldor in Beleriand, and had come under their doom/fate. And theorized that the incidence prophecy among mortals was link to how closely they were bound to the fate of the Elves who were inescapabley bound to the fate of the world.
Of course the more mudane explanation is the the of mortals we read stories of are mostly those of the royal and noble descendants of the Half-Elven, and thoses closely connected to the Eldar, and we just do not get to hear about the mudane prophecies put forth by vast majoirty of humans.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
05-27-2005, 05:18 AM | #5 | ||||
Enting
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05-27-2005, 02:30 PM | #6 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks for the quotes, Maerbenn.
Actually I don't think Beorn is important to this thread. He is a character from The Hobbit and stands a little apart from other Tolkien characters with well defined origin and species characteristics. Quote:
Please, Mooters who have recently read Silmarillion, help! |
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05-27-2005, 04:33 PM | #7 |
The Intermittent One
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my, what an interesting read this thread is! my thoughts are that the dunedain have greater power than lesser men, and the lords of the dunedain even greater so
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05-30-2005, 01:50 PM | #8 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Concerning healing powers I remember that Aragorn told that Erlond was the best possible healer as he was "the oldest of our race" (LOTR) Sorry, citing from memory. So, perhaps, healing abilities were restricted to the line of Luthien.
I haven't found any prophecies made by MEN in the Silmarillion, save the single case of Huor in the Fifth battle: Quote:
All the other human heroes (Hurin, Tuor, Turin, Beren, Morwen Nienor etc)made no prophecies and showed no magic abilities. Turin, for instance, was totally lacking foresight and even made no educated guesses about the future. At least that was my impression. |
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05-31-2005, 05:26 AM | #9 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Thanks, Gordis!
I think it is safe to tell that at least all the SORCERORS were descendants of Melian. Luthien Elwing Erlond Witch-King Isildur Beruthiel Malbeth? Do you know any other sorcerors? |
05-31-2005, 12:16 PM | #10 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
What about him? |
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06-01-2005, 01:10 AM | #11 | |
AngAdan
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Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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06-01-2005, 01:12 AM | #12 | |
AngAdan
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Quote:
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
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06-03-2005, 09:49 PM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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06-03-2005, 11:19 PM | #14 |
AngAdan
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There is not a stated connection between the healing skills/powers of the Numenorian royal line, and that of the Elves (and note that Elrond's power is clearly shown to be greater than Aragorns). Indeed since almost all the the Numemnorian Kings in exile were warriors, yet healing power was traditional kingly trait (so strong as to be a indicia of royalty), this would clearly put them outside the pattern stated for evlish warriors vs elvish healers.
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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 06-03-2005 at 11:21 PM. |
06-09-2005, 09:58 AM | #15 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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It looks like to me that my theory WORKS!!!
Even with the Mouth A propos, perhaps MOUTH had more rights to the gondor throne than Aragorn? |
06-09-2005, 10:11 AM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
Black Numenorians and Elendil's people legally were his vassals, even if they ventured an enterprises (like establishing Harad) of their own. |
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06-09-2005, 05:25 PM | #17 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
But I think CS meant pretenders among living men? IF Mouth was a male line descendant of Castamir (who left two sons in Umbar, as far as I remember) then his claim was better than Aragorn's. Actually it is interesting that Sauron promised Mouth the Lordship of Isengard, NOT that of Minas Tirith. So who would have become the new king of Gondor? I think the Witch-King. |
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06-09-2005, 05:29 PM | #18 | |
The Intermittent One
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06-09-2005, 05:49 PM | #19 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Quote:
The Witch-King entered Minas Tirith wearing a crown; I think Sauron promised him Gondor. That's another question was Sau going to keep his promise. But when Sauron obtained the One, he could then give the Nine rings back to nazgul and then control them really effectively. So why not? |
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06-09-2005, 05:51 PM | #20 |
The Intermittent One
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maybe, but i cant trust wikkie, khamul on the other hand, now he does as hes told (maybe a bit henpecked )
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