03-24-2003, 02:34 PM | #1 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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fate of Arda
I have a question about the fate of Arda. I there is already a thread about this I'm sorry, close this one or move it. Anywho....were the Two Trees of Valinor destined to die? I mean if they didn't, how would Men have awoken?
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03-25-2003, 06:52 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
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The sun and moon developing from the Two Trees was said to be a Mannish Myth. In Tolkiens later writing, men were said to have awoken a lot earlier, possibly in the Great March of the Eldar. (Read HoME 10 for more.)
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03-25-2003, 11:55 AM | #3 | |
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03-25-2003, 12:24 PM | #4 |
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Right at the end of Tolkien's life he started to totally redo The Silmarillion, where the Sun and Moon were here from the begining and did not come from the Trees. This never went past a few rewritings of the opening chapters and notes. In other words, The Silmarillion that he spent so many years working on he scrapped and was starting all over again with a whole new history for Elves and Men. See Myths Transformed in Morgoth's Ring HoME X.
In answer to your first question, I say yes, the Trees were destined to die. This is just my opinion on the matter, but the Valar had neglected ME, and were to comfortable in their paradise behind the mountains. They had forgotten all the Elves still in ME, and the Men that were to come. If the Trees were not destroyed would Man have awoke? Who knows, but it seems it takes a certain event to make the Children of Iluvatar awake, the Elves awoke after Varda's second star making, when the brightest stars were lifted into the sky, and Men awoke with the first rising of the Sun. You also asked, 'So did Christopher make a mistake when he published the Sil?'. The Sil is the result of years of writings that Tolkien had done and Christopher Tolkien put together as best and coherently as he could achive at the time. After working on Unfinished Tales and the Home series he found that there were many mistakes in the published Sil. I look at the Sil as a guide to the HoME series, it shows you the direction Tolkien was taking and how he wanted it to appear. But as far as being exaclty what Tolkien wanted, it is not, but without it, for me atleast, I think the HoME series would be extremely hard to understand.
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
03-25-2003, 12:27 PM | #5 |
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Just wanted to point out about the other Elves still in Middle-earth that that was by no fault of the Valar, but solely because of the Elves themselves and their refusal to answer the summons.
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03-25-2003, 12:39 PM | #6 | |
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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03-25-2003, 12:48 PM | #7 |
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haven't read the Ainulindale lately, but i believe that men were a theme introducted by Eru after the first theme had fallen into chaos.
so, when men were conceived in Eru's mind the trees where destined to die.
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03-25-2003, 02:09 PM | #8 | |
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03-25-2003, 05:03 PM | #9 |
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I'm confused now! I mentioned on the silm thread (chapter 3) about the music and the children. Rian said the themes had nothing to do with elves and men, it was all in response to Melkor. But, I have read several people state that the children of Iluvatar are in the music, specifically the last two mini themes! Oh Rian!
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03-25-2003, 05:38 PM | #10 |
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i've also heard different interpretations of the themes in the music. as i said, i cannot assure now anything because it's been a time since i last read the ainulindale.
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03-25-2003, 06:33 PM | #11 |
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Must be this is one of those "up for Interpretation" things! I wonder if Micheal Martinez has an article about "The music"? Maybe I'll look when I have some free time!
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03-25-2003, 09:07 PM | #12 | ||
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03-25-2003, 09:14 PM | #13 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No, but it was not any fault of the Valar, either. As usual, Melkor was to blame.
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03-26-2003, 11:17 AM | #14 | ||||||
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The Silmarillion - Of the Begining of Days Quote:
The Sil - Ainulindale Quote:
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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03-26-2003, 12:28 PM | #15 | |
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03-27-2003, 01:10 PM | #16 | |
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All is in Martinez
i made, as Lizra suggested, a search in MM webpage and found that he uses this text of the Athrabeth Finrod... to interpret the music:
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03-27-2003, 03:16 PM | #17 |
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All right! I had originally thought the last two themes were elves and men, the way MBelcha suggested. Thank's for the clarification MB, and FM. This sounds like the answer! I love the musical creation!
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03-27-2003, 09:07 PM | #18 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-12-2003, 12:21 AM | #19 |
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The Valar also see a vision of Arda as they sung it. Arda in all it's glory and yet still in all it's tumult because of the discord of Melkor. But even Melkor's discord was woven into harmony and beauty at some points, like with the frost and the dew on wide fields in the morning.
Yet it was still their task to make that world, so they couldn't know everything, but they knew at some point unforseen the Children would awake. I remember this being a somewhat important aspect in the Silmarillion; that the Valar did not know when the Eldar would first awaken. So nothing in Arda was specifically fated to happen except for the knowledge that at some point the Children would awaken and the world must be made ready for them.
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04-18-2003, 10:51 AM | #20 | ||||||
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The first theme (the deep and wide) was Eru's original plan. The second one (braying trumpets), and the third quotation was Melkor's attempt to take over Arda. The fourth quotation refers to the facts that even when Melkor seemed to triumph, Eru still managed to bring good out of it. This is a Biblical idea (not surprising, considering that Tolkien was a Christian). For example, in Genesis 50:20, when Joseph was talking to his brothers who had sold him into slavery - Quote:
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