03-31-2005, 07:36 PM | #1 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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03-31-2005, 09:22 PM | #2 | |
Elf Lord
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The seven days seem likely to me to be symbolic, however. They are the number of perfection. The word seven is used countless times in the Book of Revelation, frequently symbolically. "Seven lampstands," etc. We also have a glimpse in one of the Epistles of how God defines days. "To the Lord, a thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years." The Lord also says that he will be returning soon. His soon is clearly very different from ours . I'll respond to Eärniel's request for evidence on the age span soon.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-01-2005, 04:02 AM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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I haven't done as much research on the long ages as I should, if I want to make a very convincing argument. I do believe there is significant evidence for a dramatic radiocarbon shift, however, and it seems reasonable to suppose that this would have a strong impact upon the life expectancy of living organisms from ancient times. Here is my post from before on the matter:
Biblical long ages 7/06/03 quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Cirdan As to the extgrodinary ages described in the bible, you must remember that there is a limit to the number of times our DNA can replicate, without being part of a stem cell, gamete, etc. Even adding extrodinary living conditions and allowing say a 50% increase in age (very generous) 350 years is still well outside all modern limits of age. So, Sheeana is right, this requires a significant genetic variation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually, though 350 years is well outside of the modern limit, I don't think its primary source is the one you've mentioned. Allow me to read some quotes from my Chemistry book: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally written in "Basics for Chemistry" As ionizing radiation passes through matter, it interacts with molecules, creating ions and high-energy molecular fragments called free radicals. Free radicals are very reactive, and cause further chemical changes that are harmful to living cells. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Large doses of radiation are fatal because they cause failure of the blood-forming system, the gastrointestinal system, and the central nervous system. Smaller doses have effects that may not be observed until years later, such as impaired fertility, shortened life span[italics added], or cancer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It is impossible to avoid exposure to radiation, because small amounts of radiation, called background radiation, are constantly present around us. High energy radiation from outer space, called cosmic rays, contribute to the background radiation. Background radiation is also produced by the naturally occurring radioisotopes in minerals and in the construction materials that contain these minerals. As shown in Table 17-4, background radiation is the major source of radiation exposure for most people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Table 17-4 proceeds to show us that the Average dose rate (mrem/year) is 182. Of that 182, 102 comes primarily from cosmic rays and radioisotopes. Most of the remainder comes from modern medical instruments. Now, let's look again at the different symptoms of long term radiation contact. Cancer, impaired fertility, and shortened life span. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally written in the World Book Cancer strikes people of all ages but especially middle-aged persons and the elderly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So cancer vulnerability plainly could increase over the long run because of radioactivity. As is logical- it has effect over the short term. I don't need a World Book quote to demonstrate that it is middle aged persons and the elderly that are less likely to successfully bear children- we all know it. And shortened life span also is a symptom. Is it not conceivable then, that by a dramatic change in the radiocarbon levels on the planet, ages might be greatly reduced from what they once were? Evidences for the Radiocarbon shift: Unbalanced RC equation permits changes in RC levels. Large deviations in radiocarbon dates in individual ancient sites: Tarim mummies: 4000 yr mummy and neighbor 6000 yr mummy Jericho: nomadic hunters remain in the same spot from 10,000 BC to 4,000 BC European cave art: unchanged between 30,000 BC and 5,000 BC. Gobi-Sahara desert formation Sphinx water damage at base (unlike "contemporary 4th dynasty monuments") Sphinx: 2076-2085 BC, so how did it get so wet? Khufu pyramic RC samples: 3809BC+or- 160, 3101BC, 3090-2855BC+or- 104, Khafre pyramid: 3196-2723BC; Menkaure pyramid: 3076-2067BC All of the above pyramids are now known to date after 2300 BC. Other pyramids (compare with Babel), some significant sumberged indicating significant water depth changed through water levels not significantly altered: 6 pyramids of Aspero, Peru (3500BC-2700BC), ziggurats of Sumer, stupas of India, Shang Dynasty pyramids (1300BC-1100BC), Aztec Teotihuacan: Pyramid of the Sun and Pyramid of the Moon, (around 250 AD), Mayan pyramids (550AD-950AD), Peru (1900BC-1400BC), Irish burial ground Newgrange, Silbury Hill in England (2660BC), Yonaguni Monument off Japan's Ryuku Island in East China Sea (under water), 2200 ft down in water off west coast of Cuba see pyramids, road, and buildings - but water levels not substantially changed over past 10,000 years. Pyramid at Mahabalipuram sea port, under 15-21 ft of water in India. Core steppe pyramid at core of most great Egyptian pyramids. Sumer: corners face eastwest, Egypt: sides face east-west. Babel (apocrypha - work of Nimrod) Similar religious significance, and similar myths (Old and New Worlds) Sumer text (2000 BC) and (and Bible) say mountain rose out of the sea to form land.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-01-2005, 02:12 PM | #4 | |
Elf Lord
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Pinker, S. 1998. How the mind works. New York: Norton.
Pinker, S. 1994. The language instinct. New York: Harper Collins. Plomin, R. & DeFries, J. 1998. “The genetics of cognitive abilities and disabilities,” Scientific American. May 1998. Post, F. 1994. Creativity and psychopathology: A study of 291 world-famous men. The British Journal of Psychiatry. 22-34. Sapolsky, R. 1997. The trouble with testosterone and other essays on the biology of the human predicament. New York: Simon & Schuster. Trivers, R. 1971. The evolution of reciprocal altruism. Quarterly Review of Biology, 46, 35-57. Trivers, R. 1972. Parental investment and sexual selection. In B. Campbell (Ed.), Sexual selection and the descent of man. Chicago: Aldine. Trivers, R. 1974. Parent-offspring conflict. American Zoologist., 14, 249-264. Trivers, R. 1976. Foreword. In R. Dawkins, The selfish gene. New York: Oxford University Press. Williams, G. 1996. Adaptation and natural selection. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Wilson, E.O. 1975/2000. Sociobiology: The new synthesis. (25th anniversary ed.) Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press. Wilson, E.O. 1998. Concilience: The unity of knowledge. New York: Knopf Wright, R. 1994. The moral animal: The new science of evolutionary psychology. New York: Vintage. Zimmer, C. 2001. Evolution: The triumph of an idea. New York: Harper Collins. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 02:13 PM | #5 | |
The Intermittent One
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04-01-2005, 02:16 PM | #6 |
The Blobbit
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Hi. What do you mean when you say 'human behaviour would be hard coded and happen a lot faster'?
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04-01-2005, 02:17 PM | #7 | |
Elf Lord
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Since it falls under the same umbrella, I will refer him to the above post.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 02:23 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
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If it happened that way, human behavior would have probably settled into very predictable patterns a long time ago. Much like ants.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 02:39 PM | #9 |
Elf Lord
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Here is a list of univeral human cultural traits.
The upshot of a trait being universal, is that it is very likely influenced by genetic predispositions. (Source: The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker) Abstraction in speech and thought Action under self-control distinguished from those not under control Aesthetics Affection expressed and felt Age grades Age statuses Age terms Ambivalence Anthropomorphization Anticipation Antonyms Baby talk Belief in supernatural/religion Beliefs, false Beliefs about death Beliefs about disease Beliefs about fortune and misfortune Binary cognitive distinctions Biological mother and social mother normally the same person Black (color term) Body adornment Childbirth customs Childcare Childhood fears Childhood fear of loud noises Childhood fear of strangers Choice making (choosing alternative) Classification Classification of age Classification of behavioral propensities Classification of body parts Classification of colors Classification of fauna Classification of flora Classification of inner states Classification of kin Classification of sex Classification of space Classification of tools Classification of weather conditions Coalitions Collective identities Conflict Conflict, consultation to deal with Conflict, means of dealing with Conflict, mediation of Conjectural reasoning Containers Continua (ordering as cognitive pattern) Contrasting marked and nonmarked sememes (meaningful elements of language) Cooking Cooperation Cooperative labor Copulation normally conducted in privacy Corporate (perpetual) statuses Coyness display Critical learning periods Crying Cultural variability Culture Culture/nature distinction Customary greetings Daily routines Dance Death rituals Decision making Decision making, collective Differential valuations Directions, giving of Discrepancies between speech, thought, and action Dispersed groups Distinguishing right and wrong Diurnality Divination Division of labor Division of labor by age Division of labor by sex Dreams Dream interpretation Dominance/submission Economic inequalities, consciousness of Emotions Empathy Entification (treating patterns and relations as things) Environment, adjustments to Envy Envy, symbolic means of coping with Ethnocentrism Etiquette Explanation Face (word for) Facial communication Facial expression of anger Facial expression of contempt Facial expression of disgust Facial expression of fear Facial expression of happiness Facial expression of sadness Facial expression of surprise Facial expressions, masking/modifying of Fairness (equity) concept of Family (or household) Father and mother, separate kin terms for Fears Fears, ability to overcome Fear of death Feasting Females do more direct childcare Figurative speech Fire Folklore Food preferences Food sharing Future, attempts to predict Generosity admired Gestures Gift giving Good and bad distinguished Gossip Government Grammar Group living Groups that are not based on family Habituation Hairstyles Hand (word for) Healing the sick (or attempting to) Hope Hospitality Husband older than wife on average Hygienic care Identity, collective Imagery Incest between mother and son unthinkable or tabooed Incest, prevention or avoidance In-group distinguished from out-group(s) Inheritance rules Institutions (organized co-activities) Insulting Intention Interest in bioforms (living things or things that resemble them) Interpolation Interpreting behavior Intertwining (e.g. weaving) Jokes Judging others Kin, close distinguished from distant Kin groups Kin terms translatable by basic relations of procreation Kinship statuses Language Language employed to manipulate others Language employed to misinform or mislead Language is translatable Language not a simple reflection of reality Language, prestige from proficient use of Law (rights and obligations) Law (rules of membership) Leaders Lever Likes and dislikes Linguistic redundancy Logical notions Logical notion of “and” Logical notion of “opposite” Logical notion of “part/whole” Logical notion of “same” Magic Magic to increase life Magic to sustain life Magic to win love Making comparisons Male and female and adult and child seen as having different natures Males dominate public/political realm Males engage in more coalitional violence Males more aggressive Males more prone to lethal violence Males more prone to theft Males, on average, travel greater distances over lifetime Manipulation of social relations Marking at phonemic, syntactic, and lexical levels Marriage Materialism Meal times Meaning, most units of are not universal Measuring Medicine Melody Memory Mental maps Mentalese Metaphor Metonym Mood or consciousness altering techniques and/or substances Moral sentiments Moral sentiments, limited effective range of Morphemes Mother normally has consort during child rearing years Mourning Murder proscribed Music Music, children’s Music related in part to religious activity Music seen as art Normal distinguished from abnormal states Nouns Numerals (counting) Music, vocal Music, vocal , includes speech forms Musical redundancy Musical repetition Musical variation Myths Narrative Nomenclature, (perhaps the same as classification) Nonbodily decorative art Oligarchy, de facto One (numeral) Onomatopoeia Overestimating objectivity of thought Pain Past/present/future Person, concept of Personal names Phonemes Phonemes defined by sets of minimally contrasting features Phonemes, merging of Phonemes range from 10 to 70 in number Phonemic change, inevitability of Phonemic change, rules of Phonemic system Planning Planning for future Play Play to perfect skills Poetry/rhetoric Poetic line, uniform length of Poetic lines characterized by repetition and variation Poetic lines demarcated by pauses Polysemy (one word has several related meanings) Possessive, intimate Possessive, loose Practice to improve skills Precedence, concept of Preference for own children and close kin, nepotism Prestige inequalities Pretend play Pride Private inner life Promise Pronouns Pronouns, minimum two numbers Pronouns, minimum three persons Proper names Property Proverbs, sayings Proverbs, sayings in mutually contradictory forms Psychological defense mechanisms Rape Rape proscribed Reciprocal exchanges (of labor, goods, or services) Reciprocity, negative (revenge, retaliation) Reciprocity, positive Recognition of individuals by face Redress of wrongs Resistance to abuse of power, to dominance Rhythm Right-handedness as population norm Rites of passage Rituals Risk taking Role and personality seen in dynamic interrelationship (i.e. departures from role can be explained in terms of individual personality. Sanctions Sanctions for crimes against the collectivity Sanctions include removal from the social unit Self-control Self distinguished from other Self as neither wholly passive or wholly authoritarian Self as subject and object Self-image, awareness of (concern for what others think) con't
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-01-2005, 02:41 PM | #10 |
Elf Lord
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Self-image, manipulation of
Self-image, wanted to be positive Self is responsible Semantics Semantic category of affecting things and people Semantic category of dimension Semantic category of giving Semantic category of location Semantic category of motion Semantic category of speed Semantic category of other physical properties Semantic components Semantic components, generation Semantic components, sex Sememes, commonly used ones are short, infrequently use ones are longer Senses unified Sex differences in spatial cognition and behavior Sex (gender) terminology is fundamentally binary Sex statuses Sexual attraction Sexual attractiveness Sexual jealousy Sexual modesty Sexual regulation Sexual regulation includes incest prevention Sexuality as focus of interest Shame Shelter Sickness and death seen as related Snakes, wariness around Social structure Socialization Socialization expected from senior kin Socialization includes toilet training Spear Special speech for special occasions Statuses and roles Statuses, ascribed and achieved Statuses distinguished from individual Statuses on other than sex, age, or kinship bases Stinginess, disapproval of Stop/nonstop constraints (in speech sounds) Succession Sweets preferred Symbolism Symbolic speech Synesthetic metaphors Synonyms Taboos Tabooed food Tabooed utterances Taxonomy Territoriality Thumb sucking Tickling Time Time, cyclicity of Tools Tool dependency Tool making Tools for cutting Tools for making tools Tools patterned culturally Tools, permanent Tools for pounding Toys, playthings Trade Triangular awareness (assessing relationships among the self and two other people) True and false distinguished Turn-taking Two (numeral) Tying material (i.e. something like string) Units of time Verbs Violence, some forms of proscribed Visiting Vocalic/nonvocalic contrasts in phonemes Vowel contrasts Weaning Weapons Weather control (attempts to) White (color term) If you will note many of these universal traits impinge on or are directly linked to, cultural mores and/or norms.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
04-01-2005, 02:49 PM | #11 | |
Elf Lord
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The capability of humans to have advanced hueristic capacity depends on their ability to manipulate internal symbols, predict the results of internal symbol manipulaiton, and then, in order for it to become behavior, implement or translate the internal manipulation into external result. If you were "hard coded" you wouldn't be able to deviate significantly from any other human's internal thought process. Human thought moves more roughly in a general direction. So it might be more accurate to think of humans as being "soft coded"... And when I say quick, I mean quick on a geologic time scale. Hundreds of thousands of years, as opposed to hundreds of millions of years.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 02:56 PM | #12 | |
Elf Lord
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As I mentioned above, humans have advanced capabilities for heuristics. What you are saying is basically the same as complaining that we are limited in what we can percieve and react to by the limitations of the universe. If you can respond to the environment (which consists of the entire universe) in multiple ways depending on your past experience, your genetic predispositions (based on solutions that worked for your ancestors) and how you feel at any given moment, as well as any other myriad number of factors, I say that it makes very little difference whether you actually have free will, or it's just an illusion. If it's an illusion, it's a pretty damned good one...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 03:21 PM | #13 | |
Mootis per forum
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After all, you can choose to do something that you think it's not the best to keep us alive
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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04-01-2005, 03:25 PM | #14 | |
The Intermittent One
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04-01-2005, 03:52 PM | #15 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-01-2005, 04:28 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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In fact that's a lot of what's at the base of mores and norms, choosing between conflicting instincts... There are a lot of times where group and species survival is more important that individual survival. So you find a significant occurence of taboos surrounding things like stealing, killing off competing offspring etc. Those types of things might be just dandy for an individual's survival, or an individual's genetic survival, but they are not good for species or group survival...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 04:33 PM | #17 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Morals do not uniquely belong to religion. I think you can have morality and morals without accepting the presence of a devine being. Therefore I think agnostics can be,in regard to beliefs in devine beings, NEUTRAL. It's neither yes or no for them, I don't see how you can get anymore neutral than that.
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We are not things. |
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04-01-2005, 04:39 PM | #18 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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04-01-2005, 05:44 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
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Blackheart (of lists today's King),
"Here is a list of univeral human cultural traits. The upshot of a trait being universal, is that it is very likely influenced by genetic predispositions." I note marriage and morals under the rubric universal human traits - which point I have been making repetitiously for some time. Thank you for the augmentation! But, I must warn you and myself (as much as I like the point I make from the data) that "very likely influenced by genetic predispositions" is a far cry from proof of the same. The furor over the "god gene" and the "gay gene" et alia come to mind. I think that an equivalent claim can be made that the "upshot of a trait being universal" is that there is a common Creator works as well, and has the benefit added of noting the Source rather than merely seeing a potential source. And I am glad to hear you aren't intentionally mechanistically deterministic. So, your source for free will?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
04-01-2005, 05:59 PM | #20 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I think what religion boils down to are several things...
1) As the Beatles said - "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" 2) Death is scary, by believing in an afterlife, it makes it easier to deal with someone dying, let alone oneself (if I believed in heaven - I would see my mother when I die). 3) Religion was a way to explain natural phenomenon that was not understood at the time, but today we have science to explain. 4) Religion was a way for governments to control people, by putting the fear of god into them.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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