05-02-2005, 02:47 PM | #1 | |
Elven Warrior
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The 21st Century Athiest
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05-02-2005, 02:55 PM | #2 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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In my opinion, the article is a load of BS. First he slaps athiests, and then he slaps religion. But wait! Now he slaps athiests again, but then back to religion, ending with a general slap to everyone whether they believe in religion or not.
As well, I believe he makes the assumption that if you are religious you dislike science, and/or that science is what draws people away from religion, or makes them not believe in it. Both of those are just too silly to even consider. I don't really think it's a very well though out article--to me it feels as if he just sat down and slapped up whatever popped into his head at the moment. |
05-02-2005, 02:59 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
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Mon Dieu! The deconstruction of atheism on critical grounds....What is the world coming to?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
05-02-2005, 03:58 PM | #4 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Fascinating article, Mr. B! I"m heading out for a bit, but I will turn it over in my mind while I'm out (isn't it wonderful how our bodies can be doing one thing but our minds another!) and come back with some thoughts soon
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-02-2005, 05:09 PM | #5 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think what is more accurate is that there are many worldview beliefs: atheism is one, Christianity another, Buddhism a third, Hinduism a fourth, Mormonism a fifth, etc. etc. And personally, I would add agnosticism (the fixed variety) as another. They're all equivalent in that they involve belief about the actual nature of things. I think there are sub-divisions among these, but I would make a division where the basic tenets become mutually exclusive. Quote:
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(con't)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-02-2005 at 05:13 PM. |
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05-02-2005, 05:29 PM | #6 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And one that I abhor - it gives just about the worst insult one human being can give to another. The kind of atheism that he does NOT hold at least says that religious people are wrong, but rationally wrong, and rational. It's like two doctors consulting - Dr. 1 : "Well, looking at the evidence, I think that if we performed surgery, we would find that there is a cyst on the ovary." Dr. 2 : "I think you're totally wrong! I think we would NOT find a cyst. I think we would find endometriosis." However, the author's brand of atheism doesn't even give religious people the courtesy of saying they're rationally wrong. It says that religious people are both wrong and irrational; IMO, one of the highest forms of insult and condescension and looking down on someone that exists. I've always said in the beliefs-based discussions here that I disagree with people but I give them the honor of assuming they have thought out their beliefs and that they have a brain and can think rationally. The author's form of atheism not only says that religious people haven't thought out their beliefs, but that they're incapable of doing so, unless perhaps enlightened out of their stupidity by some kind atheist. On his use of "transcendence" - wouldn't a more proper word be "hallucination" or something along those lines, if, in reality, there is nothing to transcend to? And if there is nothing to transcend to, should people be promoting transcendence? Or do you guys think promoting false beliefs is a good thing? Quote:
OK, two questions : (or kind of one and a half - it's more a clarifying question) : If that same talented artist painted an amazingly beautiful picture of trees standing on their heads with elephants playing poker perched among the roots (which are now up in the sky), would people think that they were looking out a window? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-02-2005 at 05:36 PM. |
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05-02-2005, 05:58 PM | #7 |
Word Santa Claus
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Artistic illiteracy is definitely not a tenet of 'old atheism.' There, the author is wrong. The disdain for religion and the fanatical devotion to science, on the other hand, often are. And that's all I'm going to say as it is all I feel at all qualified to say.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 05-02-2005 at 05:59 PM. |
05-03-2005, 05:52 AM | #8 | |
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05-03-2005, 07:23 AM | #9 | |||
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Atheism seems to have two definitions. One is the one we know, about not believing in any diety. The other is the abscence of theistic beliefs. In terms of Western (in a loose use of the word) religions, both definitions mean the same thing - that atheists are not religious because they don't believe in any god. You can't be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim and an atheist at the same time.
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This was from the section discussing Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese traditional religion.
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05-03-2005, 12:14 PM | #10 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-03-2005, 01:18 PM | #11 | |
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What a silly article. And really, what is the point? Atheism certainly is no religion, has no "leaders," and has no places of worship. It is just an idea. It really doesn't make much sense. He goes on as if atheism is a religion. Then he complains that their "believe system reeks of the 19th century" and is horribly out of date, old, tired etc. It also says "most of the atheisms that have ever existed are now extinct." - whatever that means. Hate to break the author's bubble, but christianity et all are much much "old and out of date" Attack one "belief system" for being started in the 19th century and "not changing much" but don't attack all the other religions that were started and haven't changed much for thousands of years? Atheism is what you make of it. It isn't a religion. Making generalizations about it is stupid.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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05-03-2005, 04:37 PM | #12 | ||||
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(Because Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are theistic beliefs. I win. Pay up! ) Quote:
Other parts of my belief system include a strong belief in forestry and social liberalism. Not all Christians share those beliefs, but they are such strong aspects of my beliefs they affect my personality. (Or perhaps exist because of my personality.)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-03-2005, 09:12 PM | #13 | ||
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I do not look upon Atheism as a valid religion, as you said: Quote:
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05-03-2005, 11:04 PM | #14 |
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i suppose technically what I think of as being an atheist is really being an agnostic. I don't think of being an atheist as strictly being "absolutely no god, religions suck" - but I suppose it is.
Then I'm more of an agnostic kind of guy :P BTW, you can easily be an atheist or agnostic Jew. I've already explained this before. I even know a bunch of atheist/agnostic christians.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
05-05-2005, 10:27 AM | #15 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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I don't believe in athiests.
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05-05-2005, 10:55 AM | #16 | |
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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05-05-2005, 11:11 AM | #17 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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lmaorotf
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05-05-2005, 11:17 AM | #18 | |
Elf Lord
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As an atheist, I do find much sympathy with Dylan's description of his beliefs. However, I think he's confused atheism with positivism in his slagging off the likes of Dawkins. Positivists pick fights with religion because they have a territorial dispute over where objective truth comes from. And I agree that they can both get hung up because they mistake representation for reality. I am rather put off by the self-publicist nature of this stuff though. I sense the prickling of someone who was a bit jealous that BBC4 got Jonathan Miller (cronyism though it may well have been) to present A Brief History of Atheism and not him (or someone else with a PhD in philosophy). Clearly, this fella also has rather a good list of journo and publisher contacts; he just needs to churn out a bit more of this stuff and he'll be quids in. He has a good face for radio after all. Finally, to become a senior lecturer with such a dodgy publications list shows good skills in rhetorical arts. |
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05-05-2005, 11:40 AM | #19 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Woody Allens Take On God
If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your future plans. If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever. Last edited by Spock : 05-05-2005 at 11:43 AM. Reason: more |
05-05-2005, 02:19 PM | #20 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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