Richard Wagner

[FrodoFriend]

He was a German composer, wrote some famous operas (Die Walküre, Lohengrin, Die Göttersdammerüng).

Today I was talking to this guy I know from school, and LotR came up, and he started to tell me the 'story behind Lord of the Rings', which apparently involves the music composer Richard Wagner in some way, but the tram came and he had to leave before he told me anything.

Does anyone know what this could be about?

[Khamûl]

I don't think I've ever heard of a connection between Wagner and Tolkien. I believe Wagner did write an opera that had the word 'ring' or 'rings' in the title. If there's anything more than that, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Coney]

Yup, there have been a few comparisons between Wagner's The Nibelungenlied and Tolkiens LotR........mostly unfounded (Wagner's composition being founded solely on folktales/lore.

If your interested here's a site that has most of the tale (a la Wagner).

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/nblng/index.htm

[markedel]

I've read similar things-it's largely argued the link is tenuous at best. And of course Wagner has his own...agenda shall we say.

[Narsil's Master]

lotr and music should stay away from eachother!

[Hasty Ent]

I've attended several performances of Wagner's Ring Cycle, and there are similarities... but so what? There are many similar themes in various mythologies: hero falls and is redeemed by a valiant deed/death, an article of great power/value corrupts those who desire it, blah blah blah.

As for Wagner's politics, I've always thought he was a vile person, but have been able to view his work separately from his politics. So many artists are creeps -- I work in the art world, and know this from personal experience -- one has to divorce their personalities from their work.

[Mercutio]

A serious connection is the nature of Wagner and Tolkien's tales. Both the Ring Cycle and Lord of the Rings deal with an age of gods/supernatural beings/etc. that eventually is ended, followed by the dawn of the age of men.

[I was visiting colleges and sitting in on classes, one of which discussed Wagner's Valkeryie/Siegfried/something like that from the Ring. The professor very briefly mentioned this.]

[Nurvingiel]

Maybe the connection is because they used similar sources of lore for their work? Didn't they both draw on Norse mythology?

Plus, "The Ring Cycle" probably leads people to draw false conclusions like Khamûl said.

What would be the connection anyway? Are people suggesting Tolkien ripped off Wagner? *prepares to stab*

[BeardofPants]

They do both draw upon Norse mythology, but Wagner's work is a direct re-telling of the Norse Edda, whereas Tolkien's work was inspired by it. And I will always forever love Tolkien for not including that sissy siegfried into the Middle-Earth works.

[Tessar]

Amen.

Siegfried = TEH HATEZOR!!!!

Tolkien's characters = Teh roxorz.


Annnnd there we have it.

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What would be the connection anyway? Are people suggesting Tolkien ripped off Wagner? *prepares to stab*

Just the similarity in grand epic stories.

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Amen.

Siegfried = TEH HATEZOR!!!!

Tolkien's characters = Teh roxorz.


Annnnd there we have it.

Well, that almost makes me want to forgive you for editing me twice, monkey boy. Almost.
*wedgies tessar to see if he really is a boy

[olsonm]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

And I will always forever love Tolkien for not including that sissy siegfried into the Middle-Earth works.

You gotta cut 'Ziggy' some slack Anna! He was the product of inbreeding for god's sake! Besides, one could argue that some 'Siegrfried' influnces exist in the stories of Turin and Aragorn.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

And I will always forever love Tolkien for not including that sissy siegfried into the Middle-Earth works.

But he did. Only Tolkien was clever enough to name him Turin instead of Siegfried.

And doesn't that happen to be your favourite Silmarillion story, if I'm not mistaken?

Busted!


This is so costing me my pants, isn't it?

If it does, please also nick those of olsonm because I now see he mentioned that comparison first.

[BeardofPants]

Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks. Turin can in no way be compared with Siegfried. The incestuous relationship occurred at different levels. Siegfried was a product of incest, whereas Turin was IN an incestuous relationship. In any case, incest is a favourite in mythological works. Siegfried lusted after and rejected a valkyrie, Turin lusted after his sister. If you are going to draw comparisons, then Turin can be compared to Siegfried's father - Sigmund.

From wikipedia: Túrin also resembles Sigmund, the father of Sigurd in the Volsungasaga, in the incestuous relationship he has with his sister, which is a parallel to the marriage of Turin and Nienor. In Richard Wagner's opera, Die Walkure (also drawn in part from the Volsung myths), Siegmund and Sieglinde are parallels of Túrin and Nienor (one interesting resemblance of Túrin to Siegmund is that in the first act of Die Walkure, Siegmund tells Hunding is name is Wehwalt, just as Túrin tells the elves of Nargothrond his name is Agarwaen (blood-stained).)

<edit> Although, I guess you could say that they both exhibited large quantities of arrogance - which led to their respective downfalls.

[olsonm]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Bollocks. Bollocks. Bollocks.

<edit> Although, I guess you could say that they both exhibited large quantities of arrogance - which led to their respective downfalls.

How quickly you back-pedaled. Sigmund never killed a dragon. And Nienor under the dragon spell of forgetfullness is similar to Siegfried under the spell of the love poition. But all that pales compared to the most striking similarity: They both lived with an extremely whiny dwarf. You can't spell Mime without Mim. Case closed.

[BeardofPants]

I respectfully disagree. Whilst there are surface similarities, the characters are not the same, IMO. And there are lots of divergences between the two tales as well (the dragons were both killed for differing reasons, the spells were cast on different characters, the lack of "gods"/valkyrie equivalents) at any rate. I still think Turin bears more resemblance to Sigmund than to Siegfried. And it was hardly back-pedalling - it just occurred to me that Turin's arrogance could be comparable to Siegfried. *shrug* They both had kick-ass swords though. *grin

[Earniel]

And there's the talking sword in both stories, if I'm not mistaken. Not to mention the manner of slaying the dragon is eerily similar.

So BoP, you're just in denial, and no, it's not a river in Egypt.

But gah, the Nibelungen myth is one of the most confusing I know, the endless versions that exist! I can never remember who's who with Sigurd-Sigfried nonsense.

[olsonm]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I still think Turin bears more resemblance to Sigmund than to Siegfried.

I notice that you side-stepped the Aragorn comparison. I will agree that Turin is closer to Sigmund then Seigfried. You'll note that I said only some influences existed. I don't think any of Tolkien's character's are as, shall we say, 'mentally handicapped' as Seigfried. But in terms of being unsympathetic Ziggy is reminiscent of Feanor.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

*wedgies tessar to see if he really is a boy

Well? What happened!?