Luthien's description

Celeviel · 07-10-2003, 11:36 AM

My friends and I were having an argument over a rather stupid thing but basically we were discussion the description of luthien for this game we're building from the Lords of Middle Earth books...

from what i've read in the silmarillion about luthien,

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

what i gathered of her physically was that she was over 6 feet tall of course, had really dark, maybe black hair, and her eyes were bluish grey, hence the starlit evening sky... my friends on the other hand believed that she had either blonde or silver hair and had violet-blue eyes... i don't see how that could be a possibility, given the description of her as clear as it could be, but i'm also interested what everyone has to say and what they envision of luthien... also if any of you have read the lords of middle earth book volume 2, i'm interested in hearing your comments as well...

Ragnarok · 07-10-2003, 01:32 PM

I have to agree with your description but I have only read The Silmarillion. I'm sure there is more information in the HoMe series.

Silpion · 07-11-2003, 01:07 AM

I agree with both of you. I found this description in ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’. It is a description of Arwen who was supposed to look like Lúthien.

The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.

. . . Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Lúthien had come on earth again . . .

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-11-2003, 01:26 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "Lords of Middle-earth" books?

***azalea*** · 07-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Edit: Never mind.

Shadowfax · 07-11-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "Lords of Middle-earth" books?

I am wondering the same thing.

Celeviel · 07-13-2003, 09:54 PM

the lords of middle earth books were from Iron Crown Enterprises and those books are for role playing game purposes...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-13-2003, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celeviel
the lords of middle earth books were from Iron Crown Enterprises and those books are for role playing game purposes...

Ah, I knew I had heard it before, just couldn't place it. Thanks Celeviel.

Celeviel · 07-14-2003, 12:06 AM

Willow Oran · 07-14-2003, 09:25 PM

Seeing as most of her desendents were described as having dark hair and gray eyes my best guees would be that your conclusion would be the closest to correct.

Ornelírë Mistë · 07-24-2003, 05:48 PM

Your description of her is right. In the Lays of Beleriand, Christopher Tolkien placed a former version of the poem, which said she had blonde hair and blue eyes. However, 'tis the older version.

Rosie Gamgee · 08-07-2003, 05:25 PM

I think it's in the Fellowship of the Ring that Tolkien says that the beauty of Luthien had returned in Arwen, and Arwen had dark hair and grey eyes, right? I always imagined Luthien with dark hair anyways.

Ñólendil · 08-16-2003, 12:28 AM

Your friends have no argument. They seem to be influenced by their imagination alone. No Elf was likely to have violet eyes. Silver hair would not be unlikely, as she is the daughter of Thingol, except for the fact that it specifically says on more than one occasion that she took after her mother and had black hair. Lúthien actually was an average-looking Elf, if you forget the fact that she is the most beautiful Child of Ilúvatar ever to live. That is to say, her traits, listed without all the flower language, were common. Most Elves were tall, had fair skin, and dark hair, and I have yet to read about an Elf that did not have grey eyes.

Blonde would have been unlikely, even if it did not say plainly that she had dark hair. Despite popular belief, blonde hair was not common among Elves, except for the Vanyar, and the House of Finarfin among the Ñoldor. (Although, the Elvenking Thranduil, Glorfindel, and an anonymous elf in Lothlórien all had golden hair.) The Tatyar and Nelyar (who comprise all Elves other than the Vanyar) were generally dark haired.

Eärloth · 09-24-2003, 07:08 AM

Yeah her hair was black there are no official drawings that I've come across where she has light hair - I mean:

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

How can shadows be light?

Alqualaure · 10-01-2003, 09:07 AM

Quote:

"Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven,
but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening;
her mantle was sewn with golden flowers,
but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight."

How can shadows be light?

My thoughts exactly - "dark as the shadows of twilight" does not generally make me think of anything but black!

Celeviel, I cannot even guess where your friends got their idea of her!

Alqua

Eärloth · 10-04-2003, 02:41 AM

Maybe they got the idea of a blonde/silver-haired Lúthien from the Lay of Leithian:

'The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of Stars was in her hair
And in her raiment shimmering.

otherwise I cannot figure out what the hell they could be talking about

Captain Stern · 12-05-2003, 08:41 AM

Tall... yes, but 6 foot seems a bit much to me. She is a chick after all.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-05-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Tall... yes, but 6 foot seems a bit much to me. She is a chick after all.

Yeah, but it says in UT that Galadriel was the tallest of Noldoran woman, and it mentions either in UT or HoMe that she was something like 6'4. that's taller than most of the Noldoran males.

Elf Girl · 12-05-2003, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Lúthien actually was an average-looking Elf, if you forget the fact that she is the most beautiful Child of Ilúvatar ever to live.

*giggle*

Anyway, I agree. Dark hair, fair skin, grey eyes. The Lay is very specific about that.

Tar-Elenion · 12-06-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yeah, but it says in UT that Galadriel was the tallest of Noldoran woman, and it mentions either in UT or HoMe that she was something like 6'4. that's taller than most of the Noldoran males.

In PoME it notes that Noldorin men were often 7' tall.

07-10-2003, 11:36 AM	#1
Celeviel Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 18	Luthien's description My friends and I were having an argument over a rather stupid thing but basically we were discussion the description of luthien for this game we're building from the Lords of Middle Earth books... from what i've read in the silmarillion about luthien, "Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight." what i gathered of her physically was that she was over 6 feet tall of course, had really dark, maybe black hair, and her eyes were bluish grey, hence the starlit evening sky... my friends on the other hand believed that she had either blonde or silver hair and had violet-blue eyes... i don't see how that could be a possibility, given the description of her as clear as it could be, but i'm also interested what everyone has to say and what they envision of luthien... also if any of you have read the lords of middle earth book volume 2, i'm interested in hearing your comments as well...

07-11-2003, 01:26 PM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Excuse my ignorance, but what are the "Lords of Middle-earth" books? __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

07-13-2003, 09:54 PM	#7
Celeviel Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 18	Re: Luthien's description the lords of middle earth books were from Iron Crown Enterprises and those books are for role playing game purposes...

07-14-2003, 12:06 AM	#9
Celeviel Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 18	Re: Luthien's description

07-14-2003, 09:25 PM	#10
Willow Oran Deus Ex Machina Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,951	Seeing as most of her desendents were described as having dark hair and gray eyes my best guees would be that your conclusion would be the closest to correct. __________________ "5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE. -Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi

07-10-2003, 01:32 PM	#2
Ragnarok Rohirrim Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: PA Posts: 590	I have to agree with your description but I have only read The Silmarillion. I'm sure there is more information in the HoMe series.

07-11-2003, 01:07 AM	#3
Silpion Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 103	I agree with both of you. I found this description in ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’. It is a description of Arwen who was supposed to look like Lúthien. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost; her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring. . . . Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Lúthien had come on earth again . . .

07-11-2003, 02:55 PM	#5
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Edit: Never mind.

07-24-2003, 05:48 PM	#11
Ornelírë Mistë Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Your description of her is right. In the Lays of Beleriand, Christopher Tolkien placed a former version of the poem, which said she had blonde hair and blue eyes. However, 'tis the older version. __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

08-07-2003, 05:25 PM	#12
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	I think it's in the Fellowship of the Ring that Tolkien says that the beauty of Luthien had returned in Arwen, and Arwen had dark hair and grey eyes, right? I always imagined Luthien with dark hair anyways. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

08-16-2003, 12:28 AM	#13
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Your friends have no argument. They seem to be influenced by their imagination alone. No Elf was likely to have violet eyes. Silver hair would not be unlikely, as she is the daughter of Thingol, except for the fact that it specifically says on more than one occasion that she took after her mother and had black hair. Lúthien actually was an average-looking Elf, if you forget the fact that she is the most beautiful Child of Ilúvatar ever to live. That is to say, her traits, listed without all the flower language, were common. Most Elves were tall, had fair skin, and dark hair, and I have yet to read about an Elf that did not have grey eyes. Blonde would have been unlikely, even if it did not say plainly that she had dark hair. Despite popular belief, blonde hair was not common among Elves, except for the Vanyar, and the House of Finarfin among the Ñoldor. (Although, the Elvenking Thranduil, Glorfindel, and an anonymous elf in Lothlórien all had golden hair.) The Tatyar and Nelyar (who comprise all Elves other than the Vanyar) were generally dark haired. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-24-2003, 07:08 AM	#14
Eärloth Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: EsCaPiNg FrOm tHiS HeLL iNtO My NiGHtMaReS Posts: 312	Yeah her hair was black there are no official drawings that I've come across where she has light hair - I mean: "Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight." How can shadows be light? __________________ Lothên will be found! Telperinai pennar niei rossenen, iéni únótimai be m?ri Aiaro! Man erca óre nio ettuccuba? S? mapuba Ulmo ciria ma be findi-falla; Baradis mentuba i Elestel i en tulia me Annúne pella, nimpei srestanai or helle cúna, helle rácina. Nan merin minia lóte elanar an sire cenin Ennor tellabe. Namárie! Autame Balinórena, Ennórelo autai! Namárie!

10-04-2003, 02:41 AM	#16
Eärloth Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: EsCaPiNg FrOm tHiS HeLL iNtO My NiGHtMaReS Posts: 312	Maybe they got the idea of a blonde/silver-haired Lúthien from the Lay of Leithian: 'The leaves were long, the grass was green, The hemlock-umbels tall and fair, And in the glade a light was seen Of stars in shadow shimmering. Tinúviel was dancing there To music of a pipe unseen, And light of Stars was in her hair And in her raiment shimmering. otherwise I cannot figure out what the hell they could be talking about __________________ Lothên will be found! Telperinai pennar niei rossenen, iéni únótimai be m?ri Aiaro! Man erca óre nio ettuccuba? S? mapuba Ulmo ciria ma be findi-falla; Baradis mentuba i Elestel i en tulia me Annúne pella, nimpei srestanai or helle cúna, helle rácina. Nan merin minia lóte elanar an sire cenin Ennor tellabe. Namárie! Autame Balinórena, Ennórelo autai! Namárie!

12-05-2003, 08:41 AM	#17
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Tall... yes, but 6 foot seems a bit much to me. She is a chick after all. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

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