03-10-2007, 09:12 PM | #1 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Feanor's oath: I just don't get it ...
Assuming abandoning an oath to God (Illuvatar) is indeed a bad thing ("sin"), is it worse than serial murder?!
I just reread the Simarillion (as I do every year or two) and have to admit, I'm more perplexed at the behavior of Feanor and his sons than ever over their simarils oath. At the end of the voyage of Earendil, Maglor finally actually comes close to at least postponing, if not abandoning the oath, claiming more or less, (1) Let's submit to the Valar, maybe afterwards they'll simply return the jewels to us and we'll come into our own in peace, and (2) If Manwe and Varda personally disown an oath we made naming them as witnesses, isn't it then void? Only to have Maedrhos (I really don't like him!) reply, "But how shall our voices reach to Illuvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And to Illuvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word." Maglor then replies with a variant of my opening observation: "If none can release us, then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking." But then he submits to Maedrhos will and does the greater evil anyway, knowingly! Tokien, of course, was a serious Catholic. I don't know much about how Catholics deal with this type of issue but in my own tradition, the problem - theologically and practically - of oaths to God that cannot or should not be kept was easily addressed hundreds if not thousands of years ago by empowering a religious court to grant the people's petition to forego their ill-advised oaths via a prayer called Kol Nidre. This prayer, which applies only to oaths between an individual and God (not to another person - look it up in Wikipedia if more info. on it would be helpful), was designed specifically to address the same basic problem as faced by Feanor and his sons as a result of their own rash, ill-advised oath. This outcome seems so simple and practical that it leads me to ask: why no Middle Earth equivalent? The Valar are essentially Illuvatar's representatives on Earth, aren't they. In another thread of mine on this forum, I comment on how Manwe reported looking inward to learn the will of Illuvatar which he then shared and acted on. Feanor's oath was so darn stupid and evil. Why couldn't Manwe have checked in with Illuvatar on that one, too? Last edited by Jon S. : 03-10-2007 at 09:15 PM. |
03-11-2007, 09:44 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 104
|
Actually, the Oath of Fëanor was the very reason the Noldor journeyed back to Middle-earth, and this journey was in turn the reason the Noldor did great deeds in those parts of the world.
It's just like the Music of the Ainur states from the start: evil deeds will result in heroic deeds later on. So the Oath basically was a good thing in the end. Last edited by Peter_20 : 03-11-2007 at 09:47 AM. |
03-12-2007, 05:33 AM | #3 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-12-2007, 09:25 AM | #4 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
03-12-2007, 11:31 AM | #5 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
It's fortunate for ME dwellers that, thanks to Melkor, the Grand Project of Valar to make a gilded cage out of ME, the same, as they did to Vanyar in Aman, did not materialise . Actually, I understand Feanor's intentions to go against an overbearing will of demi-gods.
__________________
Uruk-hai, or the journey to there. |
|
03-12-2007, 11:31 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
* agrees with the above, even the ones that disagree *
In Tolkien's milieu, words, and oaths have far more power than they do in ours. - think of Gollum being afraid to cheat at the riddling game - Elrond's advice re: oaths - The Dead (as in Paths of) - The World itself was formed from music (presumably including lyrics of some sort ) Whether this power derives from Iluvatar or what, there is obviously something very literal about how their oaths translated into real life. Think also of its power to "out" even those who tried to escape it; Galadrield, who did not even take the oath, was bound into its fate. Dunno about this canonical court thing, but clearly it doesn't apply here. |
03-12-2007, 12:30 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
On the latter point, obviously it doesn't apply in ME but my question is why (or why not)? Here's the logic model that could, at least theoretically, apply to ME: 1. Oaths to Illuvatar (God) are binding. 2. God won't speak directly to His creations. 3. God will, however, let His will be known, at least occasionally, to his representatives. 4. The Valar are Illuvatar's ME reps. 5. Manwe, in particular, by going inward, can at least occasionally learn the will of Illuvatar. 6. Upon request, Manwe looks inward and ascertains that the Illuvatar is not particularly interested in Feanor and his sons keeping the particular oath. But even if this is deemed not logical or ME-internally consistent, I would still repeat this alternative logic: IF fulfilling an oath to God (Illuvatar) has/is/will produce worse evil than abandoning it THEN the ethical response is to abandon it and by so doing do the right thing overall. Seems to me Maglor, in fact, "got" this. He was just too weak AKA insufficiently ethical to "act" on it. |
|
03-12-2007, 12:48 PM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 104
|
By the way, Jon S., how can you NOT like Maedhros?
He's a very caring guy, the only one of the brothers who actually cares for other people and shows love for them. *he felt sad for the burning of the ships at Losgar *because of this, he waived his claim to kingship, and gave it to Fingolfin *he formed the Union of Maedhros *he sought for the sons of Dior, Eluréd and Elur*n *he and Maglor took care of Elrond and Elros So, how could anyone dislike him? He had a big heart, and he clearly was the most likeable of the brothers. Last edited by Peter_20 : 03-12-2007 at 12:57 PM. |
03-12-2007, 01:58 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Take the example of the Oathbreakers from the Paths of the Dead. How did they end up cursed for three millennia? How did Aragorn summon them to serve him? Somehow I don't think that sort of thing went on in pre-Biblical times, or any other. |
|
03-12-2007, 02:51 PM | #10 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
In equal spirits, a while later he goes off in the night, slays some guards and escapes with a stolen silmaril. Yeah, I'm sure he's a big softie, really.
__________________
We are not things. |
|
03-12-2007, 06:58 PM | #11 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
"You shall not swear falsely by the name of the Lord your God for the Lord will not clear one who swears falsely by His name." Exodus 20:7 (JPS Translation) See also Deuteronomy 5:11. It doesn't get much more direct/stronger than this, Gaffer. And that's exactly my point. The letter of Biblical law is clear: you swear, you don't follow through, you're cooked. But that's just the letter and just of that law. There's also a law, after all, "You shall not murder." What happens when "You shall not swear falsely" butts up against "You shall not murder?" I can tell you this: in the case of the religion that birthed the Ten Commandments, the former gave way to the latter. Always. (And not only in such an extreme conflict, via Kol Nidre, in other unfair/inappropriate/unethical cases, too.) Apparently not in ME for the sons of Feanor, though. The Elves were not stupid or lacking in brains or creativity. I still don't get it. Last edited by Jon S. : 03-12-2007 at 06:59 PM. |
|
03-12-2007, 07:06 PM | #12 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-13-2007, 04:43 AM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
However, I don't see any mention of God condemning people to walk the earth as the living dead for three millenia. Nor does it address the "how" (it is just like saying Eru=God) Some more examples of words with power: - Gandalf's Word of Command - Elbereth Gilthoniel |
|
03-13-2007, 02:37 PM | #14 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-14-2007, 03:43 AM | #15 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
Why did Tolkien create Feanor? He was making a beautiful, genius artistic point, with the creation and implementaion of Feanor into his stories. Feanor was not a "Lucifer," he was not "evil," he was not even a fraction as bad or bad-ass as Sauron ever was, but he was real, accessible, human more than Elvish with his abilities both to make terrible, proud decisions and crushing, Middle-Earth shattering mistakes, his extremely rare ability to lead on such a massive scale as to have all sorts of elves following him into uncertainty and possible ostracision from Eru, with devoted fervor, even after the terrible burning of the ships and all the other fantastically far-fetched f*cked up decisions Feanor made as a leader. About Feanor's Oath - so, you just "don't get it?" Well, try to think about it a little, try to put yourself even slightly into the mind and shoes of this great mythological leader; he was far greater a leader than Attila the Hun, or Napolean, or Genghis Khan or George Washington or Joan of Arc or Lucifer or Jesus or Puff the Magic Dragon, all combined!!! Feanor was all that, and a bag 'o chips. He'd have freaked out Jesus, made Genghis & Attila very nervous, caused Joan to go into a paranoid trance, madce Napolean insanely jealous, and prompted George Washington to say f*ck it, can't compete, and light up a spliff. Lucifer & Jesus'd just stick around and squabble over the publicity rights, arguing about who deserves what recognition for what portrayal of whose true character, yada yada blah blah. They'd be still locked up in litigation about that sh*t right now; cases like that last for centuries, don't they. Anyway, we all know how much intense sibling rivalry has always gone down between THOSE two, Lucifer & Jesus, oh, fuggetaboutit.
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 03-14-2007 at 03:45 AM. |
|
03-14-2007, 04:23 AM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Outstanding post, Lotsy! Especially
Quote:
|
|
03-14-2007, 04:46 AM | #17 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
__________________
We are not things. |
|
03-14-2007, 06:54 AM | #18 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 421
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Landroval : 03-14-2007 at 03:17 PM. |
||
03-14-2007, 04:25 PM | #19 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 455
|
Quote:
It's not only a ME phenomenom. The real world is full of people who put their self-perceived "principles" and "leadership" above their ethics. People who will literally murder a human being for a jewel or an oath. That, yes, I "get." |
|
03-14-2007, 04:59 PM | #20 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
And starting the fires that killed your own sons (as JRRT "hints" happened at the ships) because they didn't buy into your own personal agenda ... wow... Reading The Shibboleth of Feanor in HoME 12 (The Peoples of Middle-Earth) gave me more compassion for the guy, though. I like that he's a complex character, but I think he made a progression of self-centered, self-serving choices at terrible cost to others, and his heart grew harder each time.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-14-2007 at 05:05 PM. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
feanor a villian | afro-elf | The Silmarillion | 262 | 05-23-2003 09:55 AM |
I Curse This Place With Such Vehemence That Feanor's Seems Like A Wish Of Joy | afro-elf | General Messages | 24 | 06-10-2002 06:46 PM |