Power: Morgoth and Sauron

[Finrod Felagund]

You know, I was thinking, while Morgoth, being a vala, was obviously more powerful in a blatant way than Sauron, Sauron had a very great cunning, making him more powerful than Morgoth in some ways. Morgoth chose brute strength alone (not always, but for the most part), while Sauron was extremely wily (using spies) and had a sneaky streak (his undermining of Numenor's throne)

[Beor]

I do agree with you, and though in the beginning Sauron was good, until he followed Melkor, I'd say that he soon overcame him in evilness, if not in power, if you get my meaning

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, yes. Look at how sneaky he was with Celebrimbor. Although he wasn't as powerful as Morgoth, he was almost equally as evil. I think the Sil says that "He was only less evil then his master in that for a time, he served another and not himself. But in years after, he arose like a shadow of Morgoth and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the void."

[Beor]

yeah, but it seems to me that the only reason that Sauron would have served Morgoth was because he didn't have the power to overthrow him. Given the chance, Sauron would have brought him under his own dominion. I think that Sauron wanted all the power for a long time, and he served well only in that it looked like he served Morgoth, but actually he was also serving himself, planning for when Morgoth would eventually fall. Thats why he always knew to where to hide when the Valar came, and revealed this not to his "master"

[Artanis]

Yes, I also think Sauron was more cunning. The difference between Morgoth and Sauron was that Morgoth wanted to gain dominion over the 'physical matter' of Arda, whereas Sauron wanted to control the minds and wills of those who lived in Arda. Sauron interited Arda marred, he didn't have to use his power to currupt the physical Earth. He was able to concentrate all his power into the Ring. And therefore it was possible to destroy him utterly.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Beor
yeah, but it seems to me that the only reason that Sauron would have served Morgoth was because he didn't have the power to overthrow him. Given the chance, Sauron would have brought him under his own dominion. I think that Sauron wanted all the power for a long time, and he served well only in that it looked like he served Morgoth, but actually he was also serving himself, planning for when Morgoth would eventually fall. Thats why he always knew to where to hide when the Valar came, and revealed this not to his "master"

I disagree, because if you remember, he made the numenorians sacrifice the white tree and many of the faithfu in his temple, to Morgoth. It seems he remained loyal eh?

[Wayfarer]

He also claimed to /be/ Morgoth returned, as you may or may not know.

[MasterMothra]

If Morgoth were to somehow have escaped the void and returned to Middle-Earth, would Sauron oppose his will? Or would Sauron have taken his place as second in command again?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
If Morgoth were to somehow have escaped the void and returned to Middle-Earth, would Sauron oppose his will? Or would Sauron have taken his place as second in command again?

I think Suaron might try to battle Morgoth for control of Middle Earth but I think in the end Morgoth would win as most of his power is in the earth itself and Sauron's is just in his Ring. Which raises another question....since Sauron's ring is of the earth (gold) would Morgoth somehow be able to control it?

[Attalus]

I think Morgoth would win any direct confrontation, but "when you are dealing with these evil folk, it is difficult to tell when they are cheating each other." Sauron was definitely the wilier. IMHO he would have prevented Morgoth's return, if he had the power.

[Ñólendil]

Well of course Sauron told the Númenóreans to worship Morgoth--as a defeated hostage he could hardly offer himself as a replacement for the One--but I guess it is a shred of loyalty left over, a loyalty I don't supposed he retained in the Third Age.

Tolkien said that Sauron at the height of his power in the Second Age was a more powerful being than Morgoth was at the end of the First Age. So, for a time, in a way, Sauron was actually the more powerful. But one must always remember that in the beginning, before Morgoth was named "Morgoth" by Feanor (actually, historically, he was called Moriñgotho, since Feanáro spoke Quenya), he was Melkor, and Melkor before he reduced himself by investing himself in the world around him was the greatest created being.

[MasterMothra]

I think the actual quote by Tolkien was that " "Sauron was "greater",effectively, in the second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First."
The key word being effectively.

So Im not so sure Sauron was ever as powerful, or more powerful a being than Morgoth, but he was just as evil nonetheless.

[Ñólendil]

In other words, he was more effective than Morgoth, at a certain time. To me, being effective is wielding power. One is in a powerful position when one is effective, but you're quite right, Tolkien did not actually say that Sauron was more powerful, at any time, only that he was "greater", more effective.

So, poo, I guess.

[Keith K]

Nolendil and MasterMothra have both made good points here. I tilt towards Nolendils definition of power in this case. As for the loyalty issue I don't think that it was loyalty. More like convenience. Sauron used Morgoth to gain his own ends in regards to the corruption of Numenor. I agree with Beor and others who have posted above concerning Sauron's position if Morgoth should succeed in returning. I think that Sauron would attempt to decieve or manipulate Morgoth before he would ever opt to serve him again. He would never try unless he thought he could win, which would be a reflection of the strength of Morgoths' remaining power in and of itself. Considering what we know of the draining of Morgoth's power in the corruption of Arda, it is only logical to infer that that power would be further reduced in the effort of freeing himself from the void.

[MasterMothra]

I agree. If I have to choose between the two, I would concur that Sauron was "greater" at the above mentioned time periods.
I am also in agreement with your statements concerning a possible return by Morgoth. It would definitely hinge on Morgoth's power and influence whether or not Sauron would directly oppose Morgoth. What kind of force could Morgoth put together upon his return? I cant remember if there are any Dragons or Balrogs left by the Third age, if there are I would assume they would fall back under Morgoth's influence. The Nazgul, I assume, would stay with Sauron. The orcs im not so sure.
Morgoth with dragons and balrogs again would definately throw a kink in Saurons plans, but what a battle that would be! Two Dark Lords, Teacher against student, in battle over the dominance of middle earth. WOW!

[Attalus]

Maybe Sauron was "effectively greater" at the end of the Second Age because the Orcs that he commanded were larger and stronger, and because the Ring gave him power to control them better. Also, Sauron seems to me to have been cleverer than Morgoth, morre bent or subverting his enemies than just brute conquest, though Morgoth did put about poisoned lies that were believed by many, including some of the geatest.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
What kind of force could Morgoth put together upon his return? I cant remember if there are any Dragons or Balrogs left by the Third age, if there are I would assume they would fall back under Morgoth's influence. The Nazgul, I assume, would stay with Sauron. The orcs im not so sure.
Morgoth with dragons and balrogs again would definately throw a kink in Saurons plans, but what a battle that would be! Two Dark Lords, Teacher against student, in battle over the dominance of middle earth. WOW!

WE know of at least one Balrog who resided in Moria and of Smaug the dragon of the Lonely Mountain. I think those are the only 2 balrog and dragon mentioned in the 3rd age.

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
WE know of at least one Balrog who resided in Moria and of Smaug the dragon of the Lonely Mountain. I think those are the only 2 balrog and dragon mentioned in the 3rd age.

My granddaddy used to tell me if "you see one rat, rest assured that there are others". I would guess that more Balrogs and Dragons could be "freed" by Morgoth on his return. There was a great deal of upheaval, confusion, and general disorder immediately following the War of Wrath so it is not outside the realm of believability that more of these beings could be trapped in accessable areas bordering on Beleriand. Perhaps Morgoth would be powerful enough to gain access to the buried pits of Angband and Utumno and there free a few corrupted Maia formerly in his service. That would be even more likely under the earlier mythology where there were armies of balrogs and dragons increasing the probability of survivors.

[Ulmo]

I think the actual quote by Tolkien was that " "Sauron was "greater",effectively, in the second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First."

I think the key thing to notice here is that Sauron is being compared to Morgoth at the end of the First Age (and 'effectively' is also important). At the end of the First Age, Morgoth's own power was spread thin 'like butter spread over too much bread.' His power was tied up in all his many endeavours.

Sauron being 'effectively' greater doesn't even clearly indicate that he would've been as effective as Morgoth were he to find himself in the First Age - it's my estimation that Sauron was also more effective because of the decrease in power of the oppisition. Sauron didn't have to lead his armies against the house of Fingolfin, the sons of Feanor and Finarfin, or Doriath. I can't see Sauron withstanding the host of the Valar either.

About other dragons - Samug is stated to be the only dragon left (in this region of Arda, at least) that posed a threat at the end of the Third Age; this is why Gandalf hoped to eliminate him in the Quest of Erebor.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About the existence of dragons other then Smaug in the Third Age:

In "Letters" (one written April 25, 1954, JRRT says:

Dragons. They had not stopped: since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70: 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.