01-23-2007, 02:46 AM | #1 | |||
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Gender Issues
This thread is an off-shoot of the Homosexual marriage II thread, where we got talking about gender issues as related to that debate.
This is the thread for any and all gender issues you'd like to discuss. Let's start with the "women are nurturing, men are aggressive" debate. Insidious Rex and myself, and possibly other Mooters had a response to this statement. I hope those Mooters will join the discussion in this thread. Quote:
Secondly, the statement implies that the trait supposedly possessed by most women causes problems for the gender. Why? What problems? What did you mean by all this anyway Lief? This too is completely baseless.
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01-23-2007, 04:59 AM | #2 | ||
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My strongest evidence on this matter comes from the political science profession. I've been taught in my college Political Science class that this is accepted throughout the political science profession, and female politicians know it's true as well. That's why, according to my liberal, Democratic Political Science Professor Stew Frame, who is personally in support of women being in political positions, there's a dual problem among many female politicians. While many are nurturing and not very aggressive (which can be a problem in times of national crisis. Take Jeanet Rankin, for instance, the first woman in the Congress. She voted against US involvement in both WW1 and WW2), many others, who are well acquainted with the statistics about women's generally being not very aggressive, tend to attempt to prove that it is not true as regards them. Consequently they become overly aggressive and cause lots of problems, trying to prove that they can be as aggressive or strong a leader as any man.
So that's a reverse kind of problem that has also been noted in the political science profession about women in politics. They tend to be either overly aggressive or overly nurturing, without all that much between the two extremes. That's what's taught in the political science branch, as learned from their statistical studies. As I mentioned, the professor who taught me this personally approves of women being in politics because in his view, having more pacifism in the government is just going to be helpful. I disagree, though, for I don't want our government being pushed over the edge in violent aggression, or held back from responding in crisis because of too much attempting reconciliation. Of course men can be on one extreme or the other too, depending on the person, but they don't as a gender tend toward the extremes anywhere near as much as women do. So now to more sources of evidence to back my claims, aside from the one professor. One citation is International Politics on the World Stage, eleventh edition, by John T. Rourke, page 67. He doesn't attempt to say whether the observed differences between the genders are based on biological differences between men and women or socialization (I have different sources that provide evidence that biology is a key difference between men and women's personalities, that I'll get to soon), but he definitely makes the point from a number of studies that women tend to be more nurturing and less aggressive than men. My next citation is Essentials of American Government by Tim Chervenak, pages 346 and 348. Here's a quote from that book: Quote:
According to the Genetics Organization, major differences between roles of men and women have been observed across the vast majority of civilizations and cultures in our world, and these differences tend to be the same. Men consistently have been the leaders and the fighters in the military, the aggressive ones, while women have tended to take care of the children and take more social type roles. If men and women were mentally pretty much the same, you would see a roughly equivalent number of societies in the world where women were the leaders and military to the number where men fulfilled that function. History shows no such sameness. In fact, there are very few societies in which women have had much of a role at all- let alone a dominant one. This is a strong evidence that the observed differences between men and women aren't cultural, but are rather biological, because otherwise you would see many more matriarchal societies in history and societies where women were in the armed forces. For another evidence (though a much smaller one), here's an excerpt about male and female brains differences from a book written by licensed psychotherapist Thayer White MA MFT: Quote:
http://www.helpself.com/brain.htm
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01-23-2007, 12:28 PM | #3 |
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There is a trilogy written by Thea Beckmann about what a country would be like if it was ruled by women. It is described as a peaceful country without hunger or poverty. Off course later on a country ruled by men discovers this country and since there is hunger and poverty and war in their country they wage war on "the female country".
Lief, you say you do not agree with women in the government because they are too extreme which can be dangerous in certain situations. You probably mean situations like the terrorist attacks (caused by men who would die partly for the thought of sharing a heaven with 40 virgins, not taking in consideration that after one time they won't be virgins anymore) or natural disasters (how long did it take for the Bush-administration, which is a dominantly male administration, to take action after Katrina?) or evil dictators who are rumored to have atomic weapons (invented by a man, the dictators and their organization also being male) or something of the sorts? You also mention that the first woman in the Congress voted against participation in WW1 and WW2, but how many men voted against? That is something you do not mention but is necessary information if you want to make a fair judgement. I am sure there may be biological evidence or something to support the claim that men and women are different, but I cannot agree with your political views. By the way, I mostly use my right side brains according to some test as apparently do a lot of women. There are also a lot of men using their left side more. Once again, that was according to some test I made and not exactly a biology book, but still I think there are some contradictorary results to be found even in official sources. On a whole different note, I just watched the Hunchback of the Notre Dame again after many years and the evil judge Frolo is actually burning down Paris because he is *how to put this nicely?* in physical love with Esmeralda... off course he claims it is her fault for bewitching his senses and not the fault of his own body and mind for betraying him...
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01-23-2007, 12:59 PM | #4 | |||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-23-2007, 01:03 PM | #5 | |
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Women who are currently successful, or have been successful in politics in the past, have to fight their way up a patriarchy to get there. This weeds out a vast number of women. Therefore, you are not comparing like with like when you compare men in power and women in power. For every Janet Rankin, I will show you a Margaret Thatcher. (or a Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Angela Merkhel, Queen Elizabeth II, etc etc) A lot is made of how men and women differ, e.g. in brain structure and penis existence, and I'm sure many of these things have substance to them However, it has been my experience that, in terms of professional performance the similarities are far, far greater than the differences. IMO it has been a major restriction on our society that women have not been able to make the same contributions as men over the centuries. |
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01-23-2007, 01:33 PM | #6 | ||||
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But you make an interesting point, and maybe it's true. Quote:
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I've seen a big difference between men and women in my life, and have learned to treat the two genders differently from the painful experience of making some women mad at me, as a result of my treating them like I'd treat men. I'm more careful now, partly because I've now read part of Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and that has helped a lot with gender relationship problems in my life. Quote:
I believe women should have the right to vote, so women's suffrage and feminism in the beginning were great. And I still approve of the efforts of some feminists to get femininity more celebrated in culture. Those feminists realize that they don't have to be masculine, but rather they try to celebrate femininity, and I think that that's very wholesome for society.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-23-2007, 01:41 PM | #7 | |
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Hey, I made a joke. But seriously, if we're wanting to study gender differences systematically then I don't think political science has too much to offer. What do you think of the Catch-22 implicit in the whole "if you're nurturing, you're not up to it; if you're up to it, you're too aggressive" thing? The best book I ever read about all this stuff was The Flounder, by Gunter Grasse. Edit: I don't work in government, but I do work for government from time to time, so I have come into contact with politicians regularly over the past ten years. I should add that the true leaders, the charismatic and highly effective people that rise to the very top, tend to be very different from the "also-rans". Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-23-2007 at 01:47 PM. |
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01-23-2007, 01:48 PM | #8 | |
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Remember Holst's subtitle: Uranus, the Magician
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01-23-2007, 02:14 PM | #9 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-23-2007, 02:23 PM | #10 |
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Just to be clear, Lief, do you think women shouldn't hold political office?
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01-23-2007, 02:32 PM | #11 |
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Of course he doesn't.
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01-23-2007, 02:42 PM | #12 | |
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There is clear evidence that men and women are very different from one another. There is also strong evidence that men tend to be more aggressive and women more nurturing. Women not being aggressive enough could definitely cause problems in crisis situations. There also has been a problem noted in the political science profession that some women become overly aggressive in an attempt to prove that this evidence that women are more nurturing doesn't apply to them, and so they can worsen situations in the opposite way. I tend to think men are biologically designed to fulfill leadership roles, and that is supported by the point the Genetics Organization makes, that across almost every culture and civilization in history, they have had those roles. If women and men were equally capable of fulfilling those roles, you'd see a lot more places and times where women dominated. So that's what the available evidence says. But I also know that there are exceptions. Some women have done very, very well in office. Not many at all, but a few. That small minority of highly successful women in office is what gives me pause in saying that women shouldn't be in office. If it weren't for Queen Elizabeth 1st, "King" Hatchepsut, and others Gaffer mentioned, I wouldn't hesitate much at all in saying they shouldn't be in office. But I know that there have been some very successful women there, so while statistics prove true in the overall and in general, they don't necessarily hold true for every single person. That's what's causing me trouble. And I'm weighing in my mind, "are the problems that exist with many women in politics, which have been noted by the political science profession, outweighing the benefits for our civilization of allowing those highly successful women to hold office? Or do the benefits from those few highly successful women outweigh the problems caused by the many?" Gaffer's personal experience is helpful to me, as I weigh these issues in my own mind. So I don't really have an answer for you yet, sunstar. I'm still dwelling on this matter.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2007 at 03:29 PM. |
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01-23-2007, 02:46 PM | #13 | |
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So I'm defending my point about there being problems with women being in politics. But I am still personally undecided as to whether or not the best solution to those problems is banning women from politics.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-23-2007, 02:54 PM | #14 |
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I don't have a problem with women in high office, but I do think that women in the military - and I have all the respect for the women that are in the military - is not a smart thing.
If we were an ancient civilization, women in the military would be considered idiotic for the simple reason that if our young women had to fight, who is going to have the babies? Maybe our situation isn't that drastic now, and I'm not a screamer on the issue...but... And then there's the draft thing. Only men would be drafted, and women would not. Thats the way it should be, IMO, but there you see an example where "men and women being equal" can't possibly mean men and women doing all the same things equally well.
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01-23-2007, 03:00 PM | #15 |
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Thanks for your answer, Lief.
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01-23-2007, 03:06 PM | #16 | |
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01-23-2007, 03:12 PM | #17 |
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For me, the women in the military issue has never been a matter of "who will make the babies?"
But I am convinced that men and women are biologically, genetically different from one another in complementary ways. Men were encoded to be more aggressive and more physically big and strong. They were mentally and physically built with the power to be hunter-gatherers and leaders. Our species needed those attributes in men, from the early phases of our existence. Another part of the human species was needed that could be more nurturing. That is essential, too, to our species' survival. Hence the biological and equally important and vital differences between men and women, in my view. So trying to say that men and women are totally equal is wrong. Men aren't going to be as good as women in some things, and women not as good at men in some things. The two genders complement one another, but neither has everything, as they would have to have if they were to be "equal." The genders are equal in that they are equally valuable, but they are unequal in the same way that a computer technician might not be able to do the same thing an architect could. Those are two different, but very important, types of skills. But the difference is not to say that one skill is more valuable than the other. For this reason, I think that applying the draft to women would be just hideous. That would be utterly terrible for our civilization. Women weren't designed to do that kind of thing, and perhaps there are a few exceptions, as there are with women in leadership roles, but the evidence I have produced on this thread shows that the vast majority are definitely not designed for it. So applying the draft to women would be horrible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2007 at 03:15 PM. |
01-23-2007, 03:25 PM | #18 | |
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I'm not a woman, so I don't feel I have as much right to bring this argument about female relationships up. I've heard women argue it before, though, and claim from their understanding of female psychology (being women and knowing them) that only men should be in high political office.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-23-2007 at 05:15 PM. |
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01-23-2007, 06:19 PM | #19 | |
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In many ways it was more a story of nature against industry, like Tolkien's Shire, than female against male: the matriarchal, isolated country chose not to pursue industrial technologies to keep their vast natural continent intact while the patriarchal empire had much more contact with other lands and needed constant new resources and land for its unbridled industries and trade.
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01-23-2007, 10:13 PM | #20 | |||||||||||||||
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Wow, less than 24 hours and there's already 18 posts! If this thread keeps up like this, I probably won't respond to everyone, so I'll apologise in advance.
One thing I think it would be useful to avoid in this thread is the whole "this man/woman possesses these certain qualities, therefore the entire gender does"-style arguments. They are sometimes appropriate, but I don't want this thread to turn into a long list of politicians' names. I read your first post in its entirety Lief (very well written BTW), but I feel I can address it by quoting your later posts, and people's responses to your post. Quote:
For example, if someone has to fight tooth and nail to earn respect in their chosen profession, they might become aggressive about it. Aggression could be the only way they can succeed. Quote:
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However, it can't be completely horrible if it has helped you. I'd caution you that treating assertive, egalitarian women like myself as though we're from another planet would be unsuccessful. But don't worry, I don't lose my temper easily. I should write a rebuttle book called Human Beings are all from Earth. Quote:
If that person is a woman? Great. If that person is a man? Great. If that person doesn't have a gender? Great. Because when it comes to qualifications for jobs, gender is totally irrelevant. Quote:
Okay, I wouldn't really have beaten you up. You're all the way in California. Sexism is one of the few things that really gets me angry. One of the few people that I have lost my temper at is this sexist guy who I used to train with in karate. Man, I can't stand that guy. But he doesn't train any more so it doesn't matter. Quote:
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Probably you've just had a lapse in your otherwise considerable intelligence. Quote:
I think the draft should apply to both women and men equally (for those of appropriate age and fitness), but that would absolutely decimate our society in a war. Quote:
Also, bear in mind that while Political Science is a science, it is also an art. The Political Science major is part of the Arts faculty at universities, not the faculty of Science. It is difficult to conduct studies in the arts sometimes. There are factors that we aren't aware of, sometimes the subject changes his behaviour because of the study, and other problems that I forget now, but learned in a class called Forests and Society, which was a Sociology class. (Sociology has the same problem.) Quote:
Small aside: However, your political scientists seem to have ignored Canadian politics. Just like Canadians! Ba-dum-tish. But seriously, there are a large number of politicians who are women in Canada, and I can't think of a single one of them who fits into your nurturing/overly-aggressive mold, except maybe Hedy Fry. But her comment that people in Prince George, BC were burning crosses on their lawns probably stems from her being a total idiot rather than being overly-aggressive. Back to my main argument: So, from your studies, you can talk about political science. You can't use a group of political science studies to make inferences about women in politics, but you cannot then make inferences about all women. The reason you can't do this is because this provides a biased sample for your inference. If you wanted to make your current argument, you'd have to back it up with studies about men and women of all ages, nationalities, religions, ages, etc. (as much as diversity as possible, and as many people as possible) in order to make an inference about all people. In other words, it's completely faulty to say, that female politicians are mainly nurturing and male politicians are mainly aggressive, and therefore all women and all men are also respectively nurturing and aggressive. Quote:
Or, what did you mean? EDIT: Quote:
If you want to also make this argument though, of course you can. (The argument is ridiculous, but you can actually make this argument, unlike some random, unnamed people who aren't posting in this thread. )
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 01-23-2007 at 10:16 PM. |
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