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08-28-2004, 11:43 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Why you believe what you believe
Insidious, Lief and R*an debate all things great and small. Then they debate about debating!
This is a continuation of the AIDS thread. Lizra also has been involved a great deal. Anyone who wants to join the debate, go ahead . If we ever manage to make enough progress, we'll come back to the main discussion of the AIDS thread and perhaps move back into the thread itself. This is a kind of offshoot. EDIT: The old title is changed, now. I'm choosing another topic title, one that R*an was considering making a new topic and hadn't decided firmly. It's a religious debate, but it can go beyond that. The current topic for debate is free will vs. gene-rule. The discussion gets into the reasons for our beliefs. Other discussion topics are completely permitted. Anyone can bring up their beliefs on various subjects, such as religion and other. This thread is akin to the other Offshoot threads that have been created. This is the offshoot from the AIDS thread.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-30-2004 at 03:27 PM. |
08-28-2004, 12:56 PM | #2 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Ha ha! Now THIS i respect. Using a joking comment I made and running with it. Thats gut points right there. Umm... now what were we talking about anyway...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
08-28-2004, 12:59 PM | #3 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Although watch out a thread like this is just calling out for renigade moderators who want to test their thread splitting powers and fracture it into a million pieces.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
08-28-2004, 01:28 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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(Remembers that Sister Golden Hair has a BIG stick ) Right. We'll watch. I'll debate with whatever moderator comes. (Gets all defensive)
I'll transfer my most recent posts. We were talking about strength, weakness and language, and we were talking about predestination through genes, emotion-control . . . and before that we were talking about freedom of religion. I'll submit my most recent posts.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 01:32 PM. |
08-28-2004, 01:31 PM | #5 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Originally posted by Lief Erikson
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If people have these emotions that push them toward breaking the law more then the rich people do, they're more likely to succumb to the temptation. Where there's more temptation, there's more likelihood of succumbing to that temptation. Even from a free will standpoint that's accepted. I know that if I was in a situation where everyone around me is corrupt and accepting bribes, I would be far more likely to enter into the same type of behavior then I am now, where there's no temptation whatsoever. HOWEVER, I still have control. I could choose not to involve myself in that corruption. There are people that do that, individuals who are that strong. Some are killed because of their morality in an immoral environment. Others change the environment through their own integrity (though this is rarer). Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 04:04 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 01:34 PM | #6 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Originally posted by Lief Erikson
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I'm teaching fencing on Saturdays, usually. There are a lot of beginners there, trying to improve. They are terrible at fencing. Do I tell them exactly how terrible they are and then help them improve? Or do I encourage them, tell them what they're doing right at the same time as telling them some of the wrong things? If I tell them they're terrible and then instruct them, many of them will never come back to fencing. They'll be hurt. If I tell them they're doing well and encourage them as I teach them, they'll keep getting more and more involved. My two younger brothers write stories and books entirely because of my influence and encouragement. Telling ways to improve in my opinion should be usually linked with encouragement. I've seen nothing but good results from that, friendships blossoming at the same time as enthusiasm to progress increases and the words of criticism are heeded. It's not our responsibility to give the people "training for life", by hurting them. The U.S. military does that because otherwise they'll be more likely to get shot dead. That's different. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 04:05 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 01:39 PM | #7 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Originally posted by Insidious Rex
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And Ill say again: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU TRY. Meaning go ahead and lets see how you come off. As i said im guessing it wont work for you. But who knows. maybe you greet your friends with a hand shake and a firm "Sup nigga!" in which case that works just fine. Although I must admit Im highly amused at the very image of you doing this. *imagining Rian in baggy pants and with a gold tooth* Quote:
Honestly im not saying you need to let me brutalize you here. I mean at most message boards im pretty much middle of the road as far as beligerance goes so im not really sure why im being tagged with the horrible bastard tag here really. im pretty mellow and easy going normally. i just enjoy joking around and debating passionatly. remember the whole rian the baby killer? we went back and forth about that for weeks and it was always in a funny joking way. how come i didnt have lief and others jumping down my throat for being mean and immoral when i first said that?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 04:13 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 01:42 PM | #8 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Originally posted by Insidious Rex
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what are you talking about here? If someone kills someone of course there is justification in putting them behind bars. They commited a crime and they robbed someone of their life and they are dangerous. When does anger enter into the reason why people are sent to jail? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 04:11 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 01:46 PM | #9 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Originally posted by R*an
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Go ahead and use whatever words you want to, and I will choose to point it out when it gets too frequent and abusive, IMO, which typically happens when you don't have a logical answer to my questions I ignore LOTS and LOTS of what I consider insulting words from you, but it was just getting so bad and so frequent in the last few days that I felt I had to comment. Words like that are typically used to distract, and since you haven't answered my questions, I guess either you don't understand them or you don't have a good answer that's consistent with what you've said in the past so you're trying to throw little word bombs into the air to cover it up. (you've invited me to give you a hard time, so here it is yet I will continue to do so without using terms that I think are rude and also have nothing to do with the subject). Quote:
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The "baby-killer" thing was pretty obviously a joke. I don't see any joke in the way you've used words like "fool", etc. You seem dead serious. And that's your right; but it's my right to point out your use of words and what I think that use demonstrates.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-28-2004 at 04:09 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 01:56 PM | #10 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-28-2004 at 02:10 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 05:05 PM | #11 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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Location: Maryland, US
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frankly if someone is reduced to simply being belligerent and spouting curses AT someone and calling them names that’s usually a sign to me that ive won. So the last thing youll see from me is that kind of behavior even though you seem to think that’s all I do.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 05:36 PM | #12 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Lets look at the biological translation of what you just said. Poor communities are more likely to experience more crime because our genes allow us to do pretty much whatever it takes to survive even if some things are extreme or what we would call “evil”. So if you grow up in poverty and you are starving stealing becomes a much more viable option. Biologically the choice is steal or die. Well guess what your genes want you to do. The risk is you get caught and killed or thrown in jail but it may be a risk worth taking because the alternative is perhaps a higher chance of death. Where as the rich person does not need to take such risks because they have food at all times. So if they stole food anyway they would be taking an unnecessary risk and guess what your genes think about unnecessary risks. So what we observe in nature works out perfectly according to the logic of genetics. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 06:00 PM | #13 | |||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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Im not going to let you get away with attempting to sneak in the world “controlled”. I have never said that and whats sad is that you know I don’t think that. Heres the difference. Please take notes if necessary for future use… GENES AND ENVIRONMENT do not CONTROL us. There are no strings between the genes and your muscles or your brain. Nor is their strings between the environment and same. The genes provide the blue print for operation. The environment provides the stimulus for overt behavior patterns. Combine the two and you get total behavior. Changing your mind is part of this programming. CHOOSING to do one thing versus another thing is PART of this programming. Acting on an angry impulse is PART OF THE PROGRAMMING. Have we established this now? Any more questions? How long till my point of view on this is cunningly shifted to make another point I wonder… Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-28-2004, 06:23 PM | #14 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Simply because we from our extremely limited reference frames cannot see the answer to something doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm sure you've heard the answers to the question of pain before, from Christians. If you don't remember them, we'll be fine with discussing this . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-28-2004, 06:25 PM | #15 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Nothing deserves anything
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Perhaps you can't control your feeling anger, but you can control whether you express it or not. And she doesn't deserve it. Nothing deserves anything. Nothing is worthy of anything. No sense of fairness matters. No man deserves a reward; you give him a reward because it'll make him happier with you because that'll benefit you in the long run.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-28-2004, 06:37 PM | #16 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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(just to insert a reference here - from a post by IRex, #223478 : "But EVERYTHING we do EVERY behavior we make is dictated ultimately with the collusion of our genes. And by this standard, free will does indeed become more or less meaningless. Because we cant escape the fact that we are an extention of our genes. " )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-28-2004, 06:47 PM | #17 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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And I did not try to antagonize you or set a trap I don't do things like that. Seems like you're throwing up a lot of dust to try to avoid answering a simple yes or no question. Here it is again: "So can I use the word "nigger", and as long as I do it in an informal manner, like a big bear who wants to play, it's ok with you?"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-28-2004, 06:47 PM | #18 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I've gained the impression you believe self oriented genes combined with environment control our behavior- in other words, our behavior all comes from genes. See what I say below before responding, please. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-28-2004, 07:07 PM | #19 | |||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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No further comment. Quote:
And where did I insist you play by my rules, or cry when I didn't get my way? All we did was try to offer a helpful suggestion for you to consider. And we all know what you did with the suggestion. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-28-2004 at 07:13 PM. |
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08-28-2004, 08:12 PM | #20 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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