07-23-2002, 02:47 PM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
the origin of trolls
what's the origin of the trolls?
in the hobbit when the trolls petrifieded, gandalf said that the trolls had been made from the rocks. (forgive me, I'm not so good in english and i really don't know how to say it right, i know it's wrong) in lotr the ent treebeard said that the trolls had been made (sorry again) from the ents themselves. |
07-23-2002, 09:36 PM | #2 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Mmmm...
It was not gandalf, but tolkien (the narrator) that made the comment about trolls being made from stone. But you're essentially correct, it was something like 'the stuff of earth from which they were made' Trolls were made in mockery of ents. After all, even melkor would be hard pressed to turn tree-men into stone creatures. The appendices do write that trolls had existed in the dawn of time, and that the dark lords had only shaped them, and I believe tolkien speculates that trolls may have been made from men, but I doubt that either of these origins would have accounted for their becoming stone in daylight. My personal pet theory is that they were somehow animated out of the rock, like the pre-adoption dwarves.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
07-24-2002, 03:58 PM | #3 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Maybe Melkor took some ents and some rocks and created a new creature - trolls? it could be, no? it's like the two details we have together.
|
07-24-2002, 04:42 PM | #4 |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
I remember reading elsewhere that Tolkein later decided that Melkor wasn't able to create, only pervert, so that's where the idea that they were altered men or ents came from. I also remember the theory that the ent wives became the trolls, but I don't know that the timeline fits. I think trolls were around before the entwives were lost, and besides the trolls we met in The Hobbit are obviously male.
|
07-24-2002, 05:07 PM | #5 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Tolkien went through several different ideas concerning the origin of Trolls. The earliest statement about them was an isolated note from Tolkien in an early LotR draft, describing them as "Orkish spirits put into stone". Because of conflicting ideas, their origins are more hazy and uncertain than are that of Orcs. (Many people believe Orcs were made from Elves because of what was printed in The Silmarillion, but this is not the case, or at least it is not certainly so).
In Myths Transformed VIII ("Orcs") Tolkien muses Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It seems possible that his opening words in this 'This suggests -- though it is not explicit -- that the "Orcs" were of Elvish origin' actually refer to the previous text given here, VIII, where he first wrote that 'Elves, as a source, are very unlikely', but later concluded that 'it remained there terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs'. But if this so, the following words 'Their origin is more clearly dealt with elsewhere' must refer to something else. He now expressly asserts the earlier view ... that the Orcs were in origin corrupted Elves, but observes that 'later' some were probably derived from Men. In saying this (as the last paragraph and the reference to The Lord of the Rings Appendix F suggest) he seems to have been thinking of Trolls, and specifically of the Olog-hai, the great Trolls who appeared at the end of the Third Age (as stated in Appendix F: 'That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power.' In Myths Transformed X, J. R. R. Tolkien gave his final idea on the Orcs, which was that they were bred entirely from Men and not Elves at all, but the latest Troll-explanation I know of is the one given above, that "they were corruptions of primitive human types." Of course this means that Treebeard was rather incorrect when he declared that Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, and Orcs of Elves. One must remember that Treebeard is not Tolkien, is not one of the Wise and does not know everything. Though, there does appear to be a connexion of some sort between Ents and stone. Tolkien once said that the Ents had power over stone, but the explanation is unfortunately illegible. And the issue of Trollish spirits, just as the Orkish spirit issue, is not really dealt with in the end. If Morgoth or Sauron made Trolls by corrupted primitive humans, and that state was heritable, why would Eru "tolerate" this by giving the new Trolls spirits? Or did Trolls breed after the manner of Men? And what is their connexion with stone, why do the Stone-trolls turn into stone when exposed to sunlight, if they were not made from stone? Were the Olog-hai made from Men? Why did they not turn to stone? In the Appendices Tolkien says that they were "filled with the evil spirit of their master". This is very similar to what Morgoth used to do. Glaurung was able to have independence and was not a mere "puppet" because he was filled with the spirit, power and will of Morgoth. Sauron seems to have done the same with the Olog-hai. So I guess I agree with Wayfarer, which is no longer now an uncommon occurance (I suspect he's wizened up). I dunno. The theory that makes most sense to me is the bodies of the Stone-trolls were made from the rocks of the earth, in some time or place in which the holy Sun was not shining, and their bodies were either filled with the spirits of Orcs, primitive Men (or both), or were merely filled with a part of the spirit of Melkor (or Sauron). I don't the latter is a possibility, because creatures filled with the will of the Dark Lord (Melkor of Sauron) tend to have magical abilities (like Dragons, or the One Ring of Power). I suspect the Olog-hai were magical. If Trolls did not breed, than I suspect in the beginning an amazing number of them were made, and since spirits were needed it did not go well for Orcs, or Men (or both). Every once a while maybe new ones would be made. In this way the Trolls of The Hobbit may very well have gotton their treasures first-hand from the Fall of Gondolin.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
|||
07-25-2002, 01:37 AM | #6 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 463
|
Heavy-duty.
When Tolkien said the Ents had power over stone, I believe he was referring to the ability of plantlife to crack sidewalks, etc as the Ents demonstrated at Orthanc, freezing onto the stones and pulling them apart like a tree in fast motion. |
07-27-2002, 09:56 PM | #7 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: and why do YOU want to know?
Posts: 685
|
in TTT in chapter entittled Treebeard, he says something to Merry and Pippin and if I can find it I'll post it
*goes through new copy of TTT* Can't find it in short notice I'll read the chapter tonite and post tomorrow... *mutters "now where is it???????"*
__________________
The only thing active about me is my imagination! |
07-28-2002, 12:07 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: and why do YOU want to know?
Posts: 685
|
i found it
this is probally useless but:
Quote:
__________________
The only thing active about me is my imagination! |
|
08-05-2002, 04:05 PM | #9 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
__________________
I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris |
|
08-05-2002, 05:00 PM | #10 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
I'm with the perverting theory, as opposed to the creating one.
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|
08-05-2002, 06:04 PM | #11 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor
Posts: 1,231
|
erm..not in a b c or d.
__________________
I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris |
08-05-2002, 06:42 PM | #12 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: seattle
Posts: 10
|
lol trolls are stupid i think they were ents and the orcs combined and made the ugly stupid trolls oh did i mention ugly trolls thats my theory
|
08-06-2002, 04:31 PM | #13 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 36
|
does anyone really like the trolls? I mean, do they speak a diff. launguage?
__________________
See ya! Becky. Guys are like roses. You gotta watch out for the pricks. lol. Anyway, keep on lovin! |
08-07-2002, 11:03 AM | #14 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Llark silverwolf, i think that the trolls were made from ents and rocks, and if you want orks (becaus ewe don't know for sure that they weren't made from something else).
|
08-07-2002, 11:44 PM | #15 |
Enting
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 77
|
Its quite simple. An ent married a rock and out came trolls.
__________________
Get Free Stuff |
08-08-2002, 07:45 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Quote:
The Hill-trolls of the Trollshaws and Ettenmoors appear to have kept to themselves, mostly. Cave-trolls lived alongside Orcs and other foul things in the depths of the Misty Mountains. The Hill-trolls of Mordor fought alongside the rest of Sauron's legions, and so too did the Mountain Trolls of the Ash Mountains, or so it would appear. No one knows much about Snow-trolls.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-08-2002 at 07:48 PM. |
|
08-08-2002, 07:53 PM | #17 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor
Posts: 1,231
|
Quote:
__________________
I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris |
|
08-08-2002, 07:56 PM | #18 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Oh, they're mentioned once in the Appendices. Helm Hammerhand was likened to a Snow-troll, as he hunted his prey (the Dunlendings) in the snows of the White Mountains. No one knows what they looked like or where they lived or anything. They lived in the snow and they apparently stalked their prey.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
08-08-2002, 08:19 PM | #19 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Searching desperately for a swan boat to take to Valinor
Posts: 1,231
|
o
__________________
I take full responsibility for my actions, except for those that are somebody else's fault Having someone to blame is nearly as good as having a solution to the problem Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them, and you habe their shoes. ~Frieda Norris |
08-14-2002, 02:18 PM | #20 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: WI
Posts: 129
|
First off, a little note to Nolendil. WOW!!!!! I have got to get me a copy of this book! Do you have the answers to everything?!
Anyway, I believe I remember the Tolkein Encyclopedia saying something about the Olog-hai being made from Ents and... something else, don't remember what, so that Morgoth would have a force that could stand up against the Ents...or something like that.
__________________
Galenavar Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo If there's no magic, there's no meaning. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Swords in the Troll's Cave | Athelwinde | The Hobbit (book) | 62 | 05-17-2016 09:07 AM |
Nature and origin of dragons | Tuor of Gondolin | Middle Earth | 7 | 10-29-2003 02:28 PM |
Origin of a Name (User Name) | emplynx | Entmoot Archive | 165 | 04-16-2002 07:29 PM |
Trolls Talk?!!? | Kyote Fields | The Hobbit (book) | 8 | 08-24-2001 07:14 PM |