03-06-2003, 08:18 PM | #1 |
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Pledge of Allegiance
As most of you should know, last year, there was a big constitutionality issue in the United States with the whole "under God" bit in the Pledge of Allegiance.
On a point of getting some facts straight re: the current situation, how did that whole thing turn out? Did the appeal go through successfully or something, or did the Supreme Court's decision pass? The whole issue sort of faded away, and I don't know what happened to it... somebody please inform me.
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03-06-2003, 08:54 PM | #2 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
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What is this pledge of allegiance then?....Is it like when your a witness in court and you swear to tell the truth on the bible? |
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03-06-2003, 08:58 PM | #3 |
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I think it disappeared because it turns out the father made it up. The girl apparently said the pledge every day and was completely embarassed by the situation.
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03-06-2003, 09:00 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
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03-06-2003, 09:00 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Re: Pledge of Allegiance
Quote:
(Warning: may cause nausea in anti-Americans ) I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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03-06-2003, 09:04 PM | #6 |
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As far as the whole constitutionality issue goes: being too impatient to wait for a reply here, I decided to look it up myself. About a week ago, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decided not to review the ruling, upholding it instead. It's likely going to the Supreme Court.
So apparently, it's still an issue. I'd actually misunderstood it a bit... I thought it was a Supreme Court deal from the beginning. Hopefully the ruling is upheld...
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03-06-2003, 09:05 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
I'd heard of it but was never sure in which context it was used. |
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03-06-2003, 09:06 PM | #8 |
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What I still don't understand is the extent of such a ruling's effect... whether they're challenging the recital of the Pledge, period, or just for the removal of the "under God" bit (which was an addition in the '50s born out of anti-communist furor). It's a bit muddled on both sides.
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03-06-2003, 10:10 PM | #9 |
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I think they should just leave it alone, it's fine the way it is. If they take "under God" out of the pledge then what's that saying about our nation? They might as well take "In God We Trust" off the money too. This country was started by people wanting to worship God in their own way. i think that's right, the Quakers came over to worship God freely and then more and more people came and gradually we became a free country. If people don't want to say that part then they don't have to. just like in school when our science books talked about evolution and stuff we just skipped it.
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03-06-2003, 10:10 PM | #10 |
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I'm pretty sure it's just the "under God" part. What HOBBIT said is correct, the father had an agenda for which he used his daughter (great guy, I'm sure ). As far as I know, kids have a right not to say the pledge, for instance in the case of non-US citizens living here. I don't think it's a punishable offense not to say it, but if an issue is made of it, I'm sure it would be a problem.
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03-06-2003, 10:55 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
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03-06-2003, 11:07 PM | #12 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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It's the "Under God" part that is the issue. Through the years parents have argued that it is unconstitutional to make their children say the "Pledge" period - but those never went very far.
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IP- Why do you think that it should be upheld? I've gone both ways with it. We also have the song "God Bless America" This is a song that we always sang in school - even when I went to public school... Quote:
I know, as GW said, this patriotism probably really annoys any anti-american people out there or people who don't understand America's patriotism - but this is who we are.
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03-06-2003, 11:14 PM | #13 | |
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Many people have argued that America the Beautiful should be our National Anthem. The latest uproar for getting the change came right after 9/11. I'm against changing our National Anthem - not because of the repeated mentions of God - but because I like the Star Spangled Banner. I think the Star Spangled Banner represents the strength of our country. Others argue that America the Beautiful represents the beauty of America more, whereas they say the Star Spangled Banner is a war song.
Quote:
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03-06-2003, 11:40 PM | #14 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Here is another very popular Patriotic song...
Quote:
This is another song... Quote:
There are other songs too - such as "When the Saints Come Marching In" and the "Battle Hyme of the Republic" This is the Marines Hymm Quote:
Patriotic Songs Fifties Web - Patriotic Songs Patriotic & Inspirational Songs Of America United States Of America: Traditional & Patriotic Tunes Large list of Patriotic Songs
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03-06-2003, 11:59 PM | #15 |
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Who asked for patriotic songs? The law in NJ is that students have to stand up during the pledge but you do not have to say it. Not too many ppl do - although lately more ppl in my homeroom have started. You are supposed to look at the flag even if you don't say it - but you don't legally have to.
This year I haven't really been saying it. They've forced me to do it since kindergarten, and I have the right not to say it. It doesn't mean i'm not patriotic or i dont love my country - i love my country. I just don't like saying the pledge. I'm tired of it I like expressing my rights given to me from this great nation. Also, almost no one takes it seriously. In all my past years of school the pledge has been a mumble, sometimes for fun and for a joke (not for love of the pledge) they will say it loudly. The pledge has become ROUTINE. People DO NOT THINK WHY WE ARE SAYING IT. That is why I usually don't say it anymore. I just stand respectfully looking at the flag. Its just part of the boring morning now. I don't really care, but the words "under god" should be taken out. You could definately make a case for it.
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03-07-2003, 12:11 AM | #16 | ||
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Quote:
Sorry you couldn't see the point I was making. Quote:
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03-07-2003, 12:13 AM | #17 |
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I'm perfectly aware that a student in question is free not to say the "under God" bit. However, whether or not students are sufficiently educated regarding their right to do so is a different issue entirely... and peer pressure just opens up a whole other can of worms.
I'm also aware of the song "God Bless America" (and in fact, remember it being sung on the steps of Congress on September 11th). Regarding national anthems and the like, the English translated version of the Canadian anthem also contains references to God, and nobody really sees it as an issue. However, there's a fundamental difference between glorifying the nation through song, which is all patriotic and everything, and the very idea of a "pledge". All those songs of patriotism, etc. take America from the angle of a national entity, in terms of culture, heritage and what it stands for. They call for God's blessings and they praise God's grace, but never do they imply state sponsorship of Him, nor do they imply the homogeneity of "one nation under God." The Pledge of Allegiance is inherently political, with its focus on the Republic. There's a difference between church-nation separation and church-state separation. I would say that the religiosity of the founding fathers doesn't imply that the country must remain somewhat religious in nature... from an outsider's point of view, I don't think American cultural identity is any longer derived from religious lines. It certainly shouldn't be, anyway, considering the cultural diversity that exists within the country. Really, it's a matter of defaults. The status quo: the Pledge includes "under God", and you can omit that if you want to. What it should be like is that it doesn't include a theistic reference, but you can include it if you want to. Some atheists are obviously offended by the status quo. With the other case, you can't say that it's offending Christians or anything, because it doesn't make sense to be offended by an ambiguous omission. It's a minor change, and it's true that the pledge is still nothing more than a pledge, but if it's such a trivial point - then what's wrong with changing it? As trivial as such a lawsuit may be, I agree fully with the ruling that it's unconstitutional. Does it really matter, either way? Not a whole lot, but maybe that's exactly why the ruling should stand. The only reason why the whole God bit was there in the first place was to distinguish good Christian Americans from those atheistic communist pigdogs, and that McCarthyist line of thought has long since subsided (I really hope so, anyway). I'm not fundamentally anti-American, as I might seem, or overly PC. I don't have a problem with Americans showing their devoted patriotism as long as it doesn't fly in the face of their good senses. However, if there's one thing I really stand behind, it's the separation of church and state - not just in America, but anywhere.
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03-07-2003, 12:16 AM | #18 |
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It shouldn't be a "if you like your country you should say it" thinking that there is something wrong with a person who doesnt say it that does like his country is going against all the basic rights we get from it.
for the songs - all you had to say is "many other patriotic songs have references to god" i understood that as why you were doing it. Didn't need the two long posts with lyrics we already know and all those sites - too much info.
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03-07-2003, 12:23 AM | #19 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
I'm against school led prayers - I just don't really think that "Under God" is any big thing.
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03-07-2003, 12:36 AM | #20 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Quote:
In our schools we had to say it and I wouldn't have thought of not saying it. When I was in 1st grade though - I didn't say the Our Father in church and my parents made me write it a number of times when I got home. We weren't even that religious. I guess I enjoyed being patriotic more than being religious. Quote:
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