01-12-2002, 01:45 PM | #1 | |||
Hobbit in the Music
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My new theory on Tom Bombadil
I was recently rereading the Fellowship of the Ring, and during the Tom Bombadil part I thought deeply about what he might be. I know that JRR Tolkien mostly leaves it a mystery but I also think he wants us to speculate (feel free to argue after you've read it), so here's one you probably haven't heard before. Tom Bombadil is simply part of the Music. Here's what I mean:
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"He is the Master of water, wood, and hill"--he he has complete power over that little area in the North of Arda--but "Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders." The clue that mostly gave me this idea, though, is the way Tom talks. He sings almost constantly, and makes it up as he goes along, unlike the other songs in LotR which are completely made up before they're spoken. Even when he's not singing, almost everything he says fits a specific rhythm. Try reading his dialogue out loud sometime and if you have a good sense of rhythm you'll catch it. Sometimes it's more obvious than other times, especially when he's happy. It's as if one little melody of Iluvatar got stuck in a specific place in Middle-Earth and just kept on singing. So is he the oldest of anyone? He's older than Treebeard, who was made by Yavanna after she came to Ea. But he's younger than all the Ainur, who sang him into being. |
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01-13-2002, 12:16 AM | #2 |
Elf Lord
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An excelent theory!
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01-13-2002, 01:17 AM | #3 |
Hobbit
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Hmmm... I don't know whether it's accurate or not, but of all the theories I've heard of Bombadil, this one is my favorite.
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01-13-2002, 01:41 AM | #4 |
Sapling
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well...it also describes what he looks like...so are you saying that he is not really there? I just picture him to be like a troll~elf sort of thing...really tiny...with skinny little legs jumping about and running all over the place rhyming and singing. I really enjoyed that part of the book...it would be funny to see it in the movie...
As Torch Boy said...he would be kind of gay...but I don't think so. |
01-13-2002, 01:43 AM | #5 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Nice hypothesis, but there is no substantial proof to turn it into theory. There is no writing by Tolkien that backs it up, so it falls into the realm of speculation.
Also, Tom Bombadil could NOT be present in the World prior to the arrival of Melkor or the other Valar, because the World did not EXIST prior to the arrival of the Valar and Maiar. Re-read the Ainulindale and Valaquenta [first two books of the Silmarillion], and you will see that the Valar were only shown a vision of the World when Eru showed them the Void; when they thought they entered the World, they found it did not exist, and they had to create it. Therefore, no creation in that World could exist prior to the Creators. Page 10: "But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored..." Bullseye.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
01-13-2002, 03:53 AM | #6 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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01-13-2002, 06:18 AM | #7 |
Elven Warrior
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Ainur created the world, by Eru's instructions (the Song), but they came there little later and became Valar and Maiar, though not all Ainur went to Arda.
They first were outside the world, and the came into it, becoming part of it. I think, that this theory is exellent, right or not. One of the best I've heard. |
01-13-2002, 12:47 PM | #8 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Tom was before all that is.
Verified during a conversation with him last week. :-)
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01-13-2002, 01:09 PM | #9 |
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sorry, lightice, the hypothesis cannot be supported by Tolkien's writings, however nice it may sound, and in fact, is DIRECTLY contradicted by Tolkien's writings, quoted above, but here is the salient portion again:
"...and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored..." They must achieve it. Not that they should reshape it, redirect it, or reform what was already there. They had to achieve the vision which they had been shown, which only had been foreshadowed by the music. True, not all Ainur entered the world, but those who did were the Valar and Maiar, and the world was formless (correct, Inoldonil, there was existence, however, it was without form). And nothing could exist inside it prior to its having form except for those who were to form it. Plus, the sine qua non ["without which, nothing"] of whether a "theory" is of ANY quality, Lightice, is whether it is CORRECT. One may claim a "theory" of the pothead pixies living at the center of stars and communing by sending vast gobs of half-cooked farina between the stars, and couch it in flowery prose, decorated with bells and whistles and pompoms, but if it flies in the face of evidence, the only quality it possesses is incorrect. Again, from Science 101, a "theory" is an "hypothesis" backed up by "observation." the theory espoused at the beginning of the thread is not backed up by observation from the texts.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
01-14-2002, 01:27 AM | #10 |
Elven Loremaster
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Careful readers will be quick to note that the Ainur entered Ea, which is the universe, and they labored for uncounted ages among the stars before arriving at the region where they shaped Arda, the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar.
Good scholarship will also note that The Silmarillion says that Iluvatar introduces new things in each age which are not foreshadowed in the Music, which careful scholarship will also note was cut short and was just a series of themes. The Valar derived much of their knowledge from the Vision which Iluvatar showed them. Elanor's theory is, in general, as plausible as any, and more so than most. She is to be commended for original thinking and scholarship. |
01-14-2002, 01:45 AM | #11 |
Elf Lord
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Don't you think that's enough with the subtle scholar-shots?
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01-14-2002, 01:51 AM | #12 | |
Elven Loremaster
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Quote:
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01-14-2002, 03:39 AM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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He has apologized.
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01-14-2002, 03:51 AM | #14 | |
Elven Loremaster
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Quote:
If that's really the case, then I might as well never crack another book again. Clearly, I can say whatever I want and if someone objects, I can just apologize and point out that I know as much as they do about whatever -- reality doesn't have to enter into the equation, does it? Are you sure you really want to drag this out? I'm growing quite weary of it. You're being rather strong and immobile about this, after all. |
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01-14-2002, 02:57 PM | #15 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Michael:
I meant to just let things go, but I did want to make one very important point: I issued you an unequivocal, unqualified, blanket apology for ALL my wrongs against you, and admitted I did not have all the facts when I took the tack I did. I stand by that, no matter how much you desire to continue the snide attacks. I was wrong, and for that I am truly sorry. Michael, it takes a MAN to admit when he is wrong [no offense, ladies!]. I did exactly that. Can you be just as big a man and accept that apology? Somehow I hold out the hope you are just that. My reson d'etre here is not to put you down, nor my fellow Mooters. I am here to discuss, and admittedly, I have gotten unpleasant on a few issues and my responses have not been all that respectful nor understanding of others' opinions. From those mistakes I am learning, and am endeavoring to amend my ways. Is it possible for you to learn as well from this melee? As far as I am concerned, I offer you a clean slate, and request the same from you. Please do not play into proving my original points about you, for I am hoping to the Valar they are NOT deserved, and that you have qualities to which I had initially been blinded. I hope to see those qualities unblinded in future. Apology from the other thread sincerely repeated here, for ALL my past wrongs to you and to your works. May we please call this issue settled, and wish each other a happy road in our separate travels? The last thing I would like to do is to have this misuinderstanding, for misunderstanding it truly is, sunder two people who obviously care very much for the subject we both love to discuss. Hopefully you do not see this as going back on my word, Inoldonil. I simply felt my prior apology may not have been clear enough. Back to the Mooting, all!
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
01-14-2002, 03:04 PM | #16 |
Hobbit
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This is my new theory on Tom Bombadil. It is mine. It is a theory. It is new. It is a new theory on Tom Bombadil.
First, my theory is that he is initially called "Tom". After he is called "Tom", he is then often called "Bombadil", but as a whole (and here is the very clever part of my theory) he is called "Tom Bombadil". I hope that my theory has not deviated too far from the specific and explicit words of Published Canon. I shall now go sacrifice a goat to my Commonwealth first-edition paperbacks. |
01-14-2002, 03:28 PM | #17 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Hmmmm....oddly reminiscent on a certain Monty Pythonic professor's theory on dinosaurs, kiri, in which she states, "dinosaurs are thin at one end, very large at the middle, and then thin again at the other end!"
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
01-18-2002, 02:08 PM | #18 |
Elven Warrior
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heehee... very nice theory, Kiri.
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01-18-2002, 05:55 PM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
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Tom Bombadoll
I have gathered that Tom was originally a doll in Tolkien´s real family. That might account for some of Tom´s "toy-like" qualities in the book, if someone gets my meaning.
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01-18-2002, 07:58 PM | #20 |
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
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Here's a quote from JRR in 1954 about Tom Bombadil:
'Tom Bombadil is not an important person - to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a "comment." I mean, I do not really write like that; he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cat in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long list any object save mere power, and so on...Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron." Letters of JRR Tolkien, pages 178-179.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
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