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09-02-2004, 09:50 PM | #1 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 1
Many Meetings
Here begins the next phase of the Ring's journey. We find Frodo wakening in a comfortable bed in Rivendell, nearly musing as if all was a dream till he spots the richly-carved beams on the ceiling and hears the voice of the long-absent Gandalf. Yes! Gandalf, the wiley old wizard himself, bringing Frodo right back down to earth with his talk of how lucky he was to be here after the 'absurd' things he had done since leaving home. Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself? Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers? We learn that Frodo has been unconcious for four days and three nights, watched over by Sam and Gandalf (and Bilbo, we learn later), and mended by the healing powers of the Elf-lord Elrond. It seems that a fragment of the morgul-blade was lodged in his shoulder, and this piece was slowly working its way to his heart. If successful, this would have lead to a state that even Gandalf saw as beyond repair. Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done. Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more? Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose? The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star. This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire? Gandalf mentions he was delayed, and hints of the story yet to come. Then he retells the events at the Ford of Bruinen. How Elrond was behind the flood, which the wizard embellished with a water-formed cavalry and rolling boulders. And how Strider and Glorfindel forced the steeds with the six Ringwraiths, who were not taken immediately, into the water where they most likely perished, though the wraiths themselves survived. After some rest, Frodo is reunited with Sam and they set out to explore the Last Homely House. They meet up with Merry and Pippin who, to the dismay of Gandalf, expresses his fool-of-a-tookishness by naming Frodo 'Lord of the Ring'. This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes? At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest. We also see Arwen for the first time, who's beauty is likened to Lúthien, the fairest elvenkind has ever known. Frodo is seated next to Glóin of 'there and back again' fame, and we hear a few more hints of stories to come concerning Balin and events at The Lonely Mountain. After the meal Frodo heads with Gandalf to the Hall of Fire, where music is played and stories told. To his surprise he meets none other than Bilbo himself there, composing a song he plans to sing for the elven revellers. Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair. If Gandalf had only known sooner, Bilbo would have brought it here long ago. Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about? The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons, and assisting Bilbo in finishing his song. One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate. More than anything so far in this rereading, this passage brought me back to my first experience with the Lord of the Rings. It was sometime around 1977, give or take. Having read the Silmarillion and most of the HoME books now, Bilbo's tune is just a snippit of the vast history of the First Age. But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful. PS ~ see R*an, i do have a SHIFT key
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09-03-2004, 03:48 AM | #2 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Great intro brownjenkins!
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That's all I can do right now ... more later ...
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09-03-2004, 06:19 AM | #3 | |
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09-03-2004, 11:22 AM | #4 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Great intro brownjenkins.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-03-2004, 02:34 PM | #5 |
the Shrike
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I have to shamefully admit that for the first two or three readings, this was one of my least favourite chapters.
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09-04-2004, 05:55 PM | #6 | |||||
Fëanorophobic
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Thanks for a good intro, brownjenkins.
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Thanks again, brownjenkins |
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09-04-2004, 07:12 PM | #7 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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Thanks, brownjenkins.
I very much enjoyed reading your chapter summary. I really liked this part of the book. I felt it gave the reader (and the characters) a little bit of a breather!! This is the first time we come into an elven realm in the book I like the mood it portrays. I've posted just a few thoughts....(i tried to post them last night but I couldn't get on to the server.... Quote:
"But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place." Quote:
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"I was mortally afraid of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move." Quote:
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09-05-2004, 12:47 AM | #8 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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thanks for the kind words everyone... my first go at it
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that quote says it perfectly
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09-05-2004, 01:36 AM | #9 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-05-2004, 01:57 AM | #10 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Great intro, brownie! Wonderful capitals!
Q: Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself? I don't know if there's a purpose behind it. I know that when I'm working on something difficult with someone, we tend to use some humor like that just to defuse some of the tension. I think it might be something similar. I think Gandy was probably aware of some of Frodo's great danger at times, and is now joking about it in a head-shaking "I just can't BELIEVE it!" way. Q: Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more? It seems like the worst thing for a Ringbearer to bear is to see someone else with the Ring, altho that was working slowly on Hobbits, and Bilbo was even able to give it away with the help of Gandalf. That bit later on in the story about how Frodo saw Sam as a grasping Orc really illustrated this well. Perhaps even if Frodo had lost it at this early stage, if he was not "healed" somehow, the power it had over him would get worse and worse over the years. Q: Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose? I think he told Frodo enough, and realized, like Gildor, that knowing too much would incapacitate him. Q: What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire? It's their genes (little joke from another thread... ) This made me think of a line from Milton's Paradise Lost (note - this was written almost 400 years ago, and "awful" has the meaning of "awe-inspiring because of power", NOT "yucky".) Satan is talking to an angel, and the angel is rebuking Satan for his evil plans, and Milton wrote: "Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is ..." Great line - there's a power in goodness that evil can't touch. Q: Is this a quality of all elvish abodes? There's an interesting essay in one of the HoME (History of Middle Earth) books that talks about different time flows for mortals and elves ... I hope one result of this thread is that people will investigate the books beyond LOTR Q: Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about? I think Gandalf was probably telling the truth - he trusted Saruman for a long time, then only confirmed his suspicions when the fire-letters showed on the Ring, altho he had enough concern to place a watch around the Shire. Q: ....there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful. Yes, I just love the layering and the mystery and the sense of stories upon stories ... I wondered, too, about why it was audacious for Bilbo to sing that ... For me, though, it was the Gil-galad song that really gripped me and gave me my love of the First Age ... *wanders off, chanting "Gil-galad was an elven king ..."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-05-2004 at 02:03 AM. |
09-05-2004, 03:03 AM | #11 | ||||||||||||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-05-2004, 08:05 AM | #12 | ||||||||
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 09-05-2004 at 08:09 AM. |
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09-06-2004, 06:24 PM | #13 | |
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09-06-2004, 09:11 PM | #14 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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09-07-2004, 01:38 AM | #15 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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In this chapter there are so many small hints of what is to come later on:
The green stone that Aragorn felt important should be in Bilbo's poem about Eärendil, I suppose that was the Elessar. More hints about the Arwen-Aragorn romance. Gandalf seems to be convinced that Frodo has not finished his task yet. Arwen's glance to Frodo on the evening of the feast. I wonder if she already then saw him as the only hope she had to marry Aragorn, and looked into his heart.
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09-07-2004, 01:45 AM | #16 |
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I thought that the green stone was a Silmaril.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
09-07-2004, 07:02 AM | #17 | |||||||||
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Excellent summary Brownie! (It took me a while to pick up on the capital jokes there ) Capital capitals!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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09-07-2004, 11:22 AM | #18 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-07-2004, 12:46 PM | #19 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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09-07-2004, 06:06 PM | #20 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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