12-02-2002, 01:15 PM | #1 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The Silmarillion:Valaquenta
The next chapter in our discussion of the Silmarillion is: Valaquenta : Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar
I only have 2 HoME books, so I could use some help with the references, please The references I have are:[list=1][*]Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The First Phase", No. 1, "Of the Valar";[*]Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Section I, "The Second Phase", "The Valaquenta";[*]The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, various places (I just had to get "Letters" in here! It's one of my favorite books, and he certainly discusses the Valar in "Letters")[/list=1] I asked Ñólendil for some help with translating "Valaquenta", since I don't know Quenya (and didn't realize that JRRT provided the translation right in the subtitle!), and he gave me the following: Quote:
To start the discussion off, I'll pose the following questions: (1) In "Of the Valar", the following spirits are referred to as "The Great": The Lords of the Valar: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; The Valier, the Queens of the Valar: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. "Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth." (a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits? (b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why? (c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-02-2002 at 01:39 PM. |
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12-02-2002, 02:46 PM | #2 |
King of Nargothrond
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Ahhh, it's already here!
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12-02-2002, 04:55 PM | #3 |
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Spouses and Siblings...
To help with the questions in the first post, I put together a list of spouses and siblings (I suppose that's the word that would apply?) among the Valar. Please correct me if I am in error.
Valar: Manwë : spouse of Varda, brother of Melkor Ulmo : no spouse, no siblings Aulë : spouse of Yavanna, no siblings Oromë : spouse of Vána, brother of Nessa Mandos (Námo): spouse of Vairë, brother of Lórien and Nienna Lórien (Irmo) : spouse of Estë, brother of Mandos and Nienna Tulkas : spouse of Nessa, no siblings Valier: Varda : spouse of Manwë, no siblings Yavanna : spouse of Aulë, older sister of Vána Nienna : no spouse, sister of Mandos and Lórien Estë : spouse of Lórien, no siblings Vairë : spouse of Mandos, no siblings Vána : spouse of Oromë, younger sister of Yavanna Nessa : spouse of Tulkas, sister of Oromë No longer counted among the Valar: Melkor (Morgoth) : brother of Manwë, attempted to take Arië (a Maia in the service of Varda and in charge of the Sun) as his spouse against her will, and got burned (literally and figuratively!) After his attempt, "Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-02-2002 at 05:11 PM. |
12-02-2002, 10:29 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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In creating his mythology it seems that Tolkien borrowed heavily from other, existing mythologies. The extended family of Valar and Maiar is similar to the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece and Rome. The fall of Melkor is similar to the fall of Satan in Christian mythology. As the Sil unfolds into later chapters elements from Norse mythology can be seen.
On the whole, the chapter serves as a means to present a list of the movers and shakers in Valinor. There's not much action or even scene setting going on in it. Just a cast of characters without any bells or whistles. |
12-03-2002, 02:56 AM | #5 | |
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Yes, I know it's a bit slow, but let's see if we can dig up anything. I don't think it will last for 3 weeks, though - we should probably move on sooner.
OK, let me work on those wonderful, intelligent, thought-provoking questions (a) Is there any significance in the number, names, and "speciality" of each of these spirits? I don't know Quenya, so I can't comment on names. Does anyone else have anything to share? I think the specialities are interesting, and I like how they seem to be interested in both the great and the small in their areas. For example, Manwë's : Quote:
(b) Which of the Valar are your favorites, and why? I know this was on another thread, but I thought it might be nice to repeat here. I love the stars, so I like Varda, but I'll have to get back about the others, because it's late and I need to get off! (c) Why did Tolkien choose to represent the Valar as male and female, and do you see reasons for selecting the spouses and siblings (brethren) as he did, or even for having the Valar have spouses and siblings. I've always wondered about the spouse idea - didn't he change his mind about spouses later on, or was it that at first, they had offspring, then he changed his mind about that?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-03-2002, 06:47 AM | #6 |
Elf Lord
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If I had to pick a favorite Vala it would be Ulmo. He is the most active in the affairs of ME at least, with his waters flowing over and under the earth. At least he does something. The rest of em seem to be so passive....not much of a story there.
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12-03-2002, 11:58 AM | #7 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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12-03-2002, 02:40 PM | #8 | |
Elf Lord
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question (b)
How odd . . . My favorites are Manwë and Varda as well, with Ulmo as a close second.
Manwë because he is so close to the heart of Ilúvatar, and I like the difference between him and Melkor. Even if Melkor is more powerful, that doesn't make him greater than Manwë, for it is righteousness that matters, not strength. Varda because . . . well just look at this quote: Quote:
Ulmo is one of my favorites for a few reasons. I like how he only occasionally comes to the councils of the Valar, how he is alone and also how he searches out the deeps: places that only he has seen. Also I like how he is so deeply in tune with the music, and is good friends with Manwë. |
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12-03-2002, 03:15 PM | #9 |
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I can't remember but I think I read somewhere, was Morgoth' area fire? That would definitly account for the dragons. Or would Aule be under that category?
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12-03-2002, 10:39 PM | #10 |
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The Valar all have affiliations with the physical powers of the earth. It is reminiscent of what one thinks of as the more basic belief systems - gods of water, wind, sun, stars, etc. Tolkien manages to animate these gods with feelings of happiness, anger, passion, greed, and sorrow. Yet they all work in unison to sustain the world. All except for Melkor. He is the dissident, and as such, is capable of much destruction. It seems odd that just 1 valar could reek such havoc. I like to look at it as Melkor going against the forces of nature, thinking and acting as if the world was there for his benefit, to corrupt and pillage for his use only. The other valar are repairing the damage, healing the wounds.
This may be simplifying it a lot, but to me this chapter speaks of the connection we have with the earth that sustains us. I like to think that no matter how destructive and obtrusive we are, given enough time, the forces of nature can heal the damage.
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12-03-2002, 11:30 PM | #11 |
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As I put together the sibling/spouse list, I found it interesting that Ulmo was the only one without either a sibling or a spouse, and he's the one that's usually ends up acting alone, and "dwells nowhere long".
The other unusual one was Nienna, the only one of the Valier that had no spouse, but then again, she had TWO brothers! I think that relationships are very powerful and meaningful, and perhaps that's why Tolkien gave the Valar siblings and spouses - for comfort, encouragement, assistance, etc. And I like how the pairings are - air and stars; earth and fruit of the earth; keeper of the Houses of the Dead and recorder of the deeds of the dead; master of visions and dreams with the healer and giver of rest; the valiant fighter with the exhuberent dancer. The only one that doesn't match up so well in my mind is Orome and Vana - the serious hunter with the flower-opener. Maybe it corresponds with the passage in Ecclesiates about "a time for war and a time for peace". Y'know, SGH, I think Melkor was never "assigned" an area, like you said, I suppose because he rebelled even before the world was actually created. I'll try to find something on that (or anyone else, too). But he is associated with fire somehow, I'll try to find that too. |
12-03-2002, 11:32 PM | #12 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Whoops! My son was logged on!
That last post was actually mine - I had forgotten my son logged me off to check his PMs!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-04-2002, 12:18 AM | #13 | |
Elf Lord
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Re: Whoops! My son was logged on!
Quote:
Thankyou for pointing out that Ulmo was alone mostly. It's another reason why I think he is interesting. I'm sure he found it rather boring hanging out in Valmar with the others doing pretty much.....nothing! |
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12-04-2002, 03:26 PM | #14 | |
King of Nargothrond
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Quote:
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12-04-2002, 09:02 PM | #15 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No, I think you're right, but I haven't had time to look it up yet - anyone else know? or I'll look later tonight ... I'm speed-posting right now, because it's finish-homework-time and prepare-dinner-time...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-04-2002, 11:17 PM | #16 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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12-05-2002, 01:23 PM | #17 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Are you the dinner-preparer or the homework-doer, or both, or neither?
OK, here's the only thing I found - from Morgoth's Ring (of course ), the Later Quenta Silmarillion I - Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-05-2002, 01:39 PM | #18 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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More questions .... on Maiar and Enemies
Some more questions - this time on parts 2 and 3, "Of the Maiar" and "Of the Enemies":
Of the Maiar: 2. Opinions on temporary rebellion of Ossë? Contrast to the rebellions of Aulë and Melkor. 3. Opinions/thoughts on Olórin. It is undisputed that he is Gandalf? Compare his actions in this section to his actions in ME in LoTR. Of the Enemies: 4. Any further comments on Melkor/Sauron? What do you think of the comment in Morgoth's Ring comparing Morgoth's "brand of evil" to Sauron's? From MR, "Myths Transformed: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-05-2002 at 01:45 PM. |
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12-05-2002, 02:12 PM | #19 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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RIAN!!!! Where's my big stick? WHAP!
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
12-05-2002, 02:28 PM | #20 |
Elf Lord
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(Gets in the way)
Go back to the shadow with your stick, Sister Golden Hair! YOU SHALL NOT PASSS!!!!!!! |